Podcast episode in which host Dan Shipper interviews clinical psychologist Dr. Gena Gorlin (UT Austin) about using ChatGPT as a tool for self-betterment. She feeds ChatGPT her old journal entries to run a year-in-review and goal-setting session: generating a personal biography, planning her 2024 goals, surfacing blindspots and failure modes, projecting the year ahead, and pushing her toward more ambition. Topics include ChatGPT as an 'external hard drive for the brain,' epistemic hygiene, ceiling-raising vs. floor-raising growth, outsourcing reflection to AI, work-life balance, and whether ChatGPT could replace therapists. Timestamps cover the episode from introduction through 'building a new version of you.' # Channel Presentation Observations — Ep. 8 with Dr. Gena Gorlin ## Observable Format & Structure - **Interview / podcast format with a recurring host ("Dan")**: The host welcomes a guest by name — *"Gina, welcome to the show... It's always a pleasure, Dan"* — and refers to episode numbering in the title ("Ep. 8"), indicating an episodic series. - **The channel runs a newsletter**: The host states the guest *"you've also written a lot of essays for every uh the newsletter that I run"* and praises specific published pieces (*"in defense of radical self-betterment"*). - **Episode descriptions carry external links**: The host says *"there'll be a link down in the episode description"* for a course, showing cross-promotion of paid/educational offerings via episode descriptions. ## Claimed Scope & Focus - **Focus on ChatGPT and psychology/self-improvement**: The episode's stated purpose is exploring *"how to use ChatGPT... in your own life"* for personal development, with framing questions like *"where do you think ChatGPT fits into that like process of personal development or personal growth?"* - **Collaborative course offering**: Host and guest are *"working on a course together. It's called maximize your mind with ChatGPT"* — promoted twice, including a closing call to action: *"The link is below. You should come hang out with us in the course."* - **Guest curation from psychology and "builder" culture**: Guest introduced as *"a clinical psychologist at UT Austin"* and *"a prolific writer"* on *"the psychology of builders,"* indicating topical guest selection around ambition, psychology, and self-betterment. ## Intended Audience - **Ambitious, creative, "builder-type" people**: The host explicitly identifies this audience — *"you're able to talk about psychological topics in a way that ambitious, busy, creative people can hear"* and *"it's so valuable to people like me and anyone who who makes stuff."* - **People skeptical of "woo" self-help**: *"not being too woo-woo... makes sense to people who might ordinarily be allergic to woo. And I think a lot of like builder type people are like that."* - **ChatGPT-curious viewers seeking practical techniques**: Substantial runtime is devoted to live walkthroughs of concrete ChatGPT workflows (journal analysis, future-self journaling, custom instructions), addressing viewers who *"just don't have anyone in their life who can reflect this kind of thing back to them."* ## Self-Description Evidence (Creator Claims vs. Demonstrated) - **Claimed (by host, about the channel's ecosystem)**: The channel is tied to a newsletter that publishes long-form essays, and the host curates and edits contributors (*"you wouldn't have written that piece... if you hadn't sort of prompted me"*). - **Claimed (about host's expertise/practice)**: The host describes personally using ChatGPT extensively — *"I've been nerding out on with ChatGPT"* and shares an original technique of having ChatGPT *"write a journal entry as me"* for decision-making. - **Demonstrated (observable in material, not just claimed)**: - Long-form, conversational interview style with tangents and mutual enthusiasm. - Host actively interjects to summarize and teach: *"I want to stop there cuz... what a lot of people do when they use ChatGPT is they notice a problem... and then they sort of throw up their hands."* - Emphasis on actionable framing: repeated patterns like *"when you encounter a problem, tell it about the problem."* ## Presentation Tone - **Enthusiastic, peer-to-peer, psychologically literate**: The dialogue assumes familiarity with therapy concepts (therapeutic alliance, exposure therapy, custom factors research) while keeping an informal register (*"it's so good," "nerd sniped me"*). - **Optimistic framing of AI as democratizing self-development**: *"you don't need a person anymore to do this and that's revolutionary"* — presented as the guest's and host's shared thesis, not a neutral review of AI. ## Notable Absences - No explicit channel name, subscriber count, or formal "about this channel" statement appears in the transcript. - No sponsorship or advertising mentions beyond the hosts' own course promotion. # Delivery Observation Report — Ep. 8 with Dr. Gena Gorlin ## Overview A two-speaker conversational podcast (host "Dan" interviewing Dr. Gena Gorlin). Delivery is informal, collaborative, and improvisational, with frequent interruptions used supportively rather than combatively. --- ## Tone & Register - **Warm, enthusiastic, casual** throughout. The host opens with excitement: *"I love this so much. Right, how cool is that? It's like having a personal biographer."* - Gorlin matches the register, adding playful asides: *"Well, 20 bucks a month"* and *"Even if it's just a placebo, like now I'm going to be trying to manifest this version of my year, you know?"* - Gorlin uses self-deprecating humor: *"this is so embarrassing but I'm going to say it. I didn't have a paid subscription."* --- ## Recurring Linguistic Patterns ### Filler and hesitation markers (very frequent) - Gorlin heavily uses **"you know," "like," "right?"** as connective tissue: > "it is like an external hard drive for our brain, right, in the sense that we have working memory capacity limits, right, that are always setting a cap" - The host similarly: *"like, you know, if you if you scroll down to to where your where those themes were"* ### Repetition for emphasis Both speakers repeat words and phrases mid-sentence: - Host: *"we'll we'll use it together. We'll do some we'll do some fun stuff together live"* - Gorlin: *"I I just love your work"* / *"get to get to read your work and get to get to talk to you"* ### "Kind of" and "sort of" as hedging Gorlin especially uses these to soften claims: - *"it's kind of shorthand for leveling up"* - *"it's kind of a bottomless bucket"* - *"this is kind of my somewhat less creative version"* --- ## Teaching & Explanation Habits (Gorlin) - **Coining terms on the spot and defining them when asked.** She invents "epistemic hygiene," then when challenged — *"I just made it up, so let's see if I can define it here for you on the spot"* — she builds the definition via analogy to physical hygiene. - **Analogies as a primary explanatory tool:** - ChatGPT as *"an external hard drive for our brain"* - Knowledge base as *"the map... on which we are always kind of walking"* - Custom-instruction ChatGPT as *"a busy founder who doesn't have time for like BS"* - **Paired contrasting concepts** as structure: **floor-raising vs. ceiling-raising**, *"work-life balance" vs. "work personal integration,"* *"remember what you know"* vs. *"fake it till you make it."* - **Episodes punctuated by named personal shorthand:** "people mode," "epistemic hygiene," "upscaler," "builder's mindset" — each introduced with brief definitional context. ## Interview Habits (Host) - **Interruption used as a summarizing/clarifying device**, explicitly framed: *"I just want to pause you there cuz I think there's there's a lot of interesting stuff to unpack really quick."* - **Reflective summarizing before moving on:** *"There's like a social level... and then there's like the individual level... that's what you mean by by ceiling raising?"* - **Direct observation of the guest's method as a teaching move:** *"what a lot of people do when they use ChatGPT is they notice a problem... and then they sort of throw up their hands... But what you did is..."* - **Closing synthesis habit:** near the end — *"I want to sum up a little bit of what I've seen"* — he recaps the workflow step by step. --- ## Interaction Patterns - **Rapid mutual validation:** "Exactly." / "Beautifully put." / "That makes a lot of sense." appear repeatedly from both speakers. - **Collaborative storytelling about their shared project:** both retell the two-day New York working session, alternating corrections and additions ("But you beat me to it Dan"). - **Banter and running jokes:** the "beating a therapist to the punch at an open and honest conversation" exchange, ending with *"there should be a badge for that. Truly."* --- ## Structure & Signposting - The host uses explicit **roadmap language** early: *"what I want to start with is... and then... and we'll do some fun stuff together live."* - The episode closes with a **call to action** for their course: *"It's called Maximize Your Mind with Chat GPT. The link is below."* --- ## Stability vs. Isolated Moments **Stable patterns (well-supported by repetition):** - Heavy filler/hedging ("you know," "like," "kind of") - Analogy-based explanation from Gorlin - Host's pause-and-clarify interruptions and reflective summaries - Mutual affirmation exchanges **Isolated moments (insufficient repetition to generalize):** - Gorlin's coinage of a term live on air ("epistemic hygiene") appears to be a one-off in this transcript, though her **use of pre-existing coined terms** ("people mode," "upscaler") recurs and seems habitual. - The host's "psychology nerd sniped me" remark is a single occurrence; similar phrasing doesn't recur elsewhere. **Uncertainty note:** The transcript lacks speaker labels in places; attributions above rely on conversational context (e.g., who is addressed by name) and may contain minor misattributions where turns are ambiguous. # Position Record: "You can change your life with ChatGPT" — Ep. 8 with Dr. Gena Gorlin ## Speakers - **Dr. Gena Gorlin** — clinical psychologist at UT Austin, writer on the psychology of builders (identified via host introduction in transcript) - **Dan** — host, runs the "Every" newsletter; co-creator of the course discussed ## Central Positions ### ChatGPT as an extension of cognition (Gorlin) - ChatGPT functions as an **"external hard drive for our brain"**, compensating for working-memory limits by making accumulated human knowledge callable during introspection and decision-making. - It should be part of "any ambitious person's **epistemic hygiene**" — a term Gorlin says she coined on the spot, defined as the intentional practices for growing, maintaining, and calling upon one's working knowledge base ("the map on which we are always walking"). - She emphasizes the **"remember what you know"** component (referencing her own Every piece): recalling parts of one's model that haven't cemented, e.g., "I am capable of being articulate in high-stakes social situations." ### Two supporting observations (Dan) 1. For nearly any experience, **someone has gone through it before and written about it** — people forget how universal their "unique" experiences are; ChatGPT helps bring that knowledge to bear. 2. **Answers tend to be simple but hard to remember or act on** — ChatGPT serves as a reminder mechanism. ### Fragmentation of psychology (Gorlin) - Long-standing frustration with psychology's fragmentation: no good consolidated reference for treatment options. ChatGPT lets users "quickly sample the whole terrain" — e.g., querying all major schools of thought for a set of symptoms. She calls this "mind-blowing." ### Upscaling: ceiling-raising vs. floor-raising (Gorlin) - "Upscaler" — picked up from startup milieu; shorthand for leveling up, but grounded in a distinction: - **Floor-raising**: addressing severe deficits/illness — the field's default focus. - **Ceiling-raising**: multiplying existing strengths — what actually moves humanity and individuals forward, but culturally neglected. - **Qualification she insists on**: "I do not think that we should stop worrying about the floor-raising problems." She argues the two should be addressed *in concert*, claiming ChatGPT "has probably done more and will do more for the most severely affected mental health sufferers than most therapists have been able to do, collectively, in decades" — by making treatments cheaper, faster, and "democratically accessible." ### Start with vision, not problems (Gorlin, on her "radical self-betterment" piece) - Counterintuitive but important: instead of starting change with problems/struggles, first **paint a life vision**. She credits Dan's editorial questioning for crystallizing this point in the piece. ## Practical ChatGPT Practices Demonstrated ### Gorlin's year-in-review workflow - Multi-year tradition of year-end review and intention setting ("I don't really call them resolutions anymore... it's gotten so cliche as to be meaningless"). - **Starting point: confusion** — when unsure how to proceed, she now treats ChatGPT as part of a menu of resources (husband, friends, books, ChatGPT). Dan flags this: "just being confused is a great place to start." - Published 5 years of journal entries as a Notion page (a trick Dan taught her) and asked ChatGPT to read and suggest structure. - **Encountering limits**: initial output only reflected the first fifth of the document (2018 themes). Rather than abandoning it, she asked ChatGPT to co-create a workaround — segmenting into eight shorter Notion pages. It then synthesized a year-by-year timeline of her life. - Both react: it's like "a personal biographer" — Gorlin: "free and instantaneous"; Dan corrects: "Well, 20 bucks a month." - It surfaced her own past concept of **"people mode"** (mentally performing for imagined others rather than reaching first-person conclusions), which she'd forgotten she wasn't leveraging. - She then pushed for non-obvious insights: anticipated themes, "what might be different this year," and **blind spots** — noting the initial blind-spot answers were all "you'll be too ambitious," which she later challenged. ### Dan's prospective journal technique - For hard-to-reverse ("one-way door") decisions: give ChatGPT journal entries, ask it to write **future journal entries as Dan** under option A vs. option B, then compare. Its value isn't prediction but revealing "what feels right" when reading a projected future self. Gorlin calls it "the coin flip tactic... on steroids," reasoning that an LLM's specialty is predicting what someone might say, making it apt for simulating future selves. ### Correcting ChatGPT's default framing (both) - ChatGPT repeatedly warned Gorlin about overwork and "work-life balance." Dan notes this "doesn't feel like you." Gorlin prompted it with her actual articulated journal perspective; it reframed to **integration** ("work and personal life are not in competition"), then gave more tailored pitfalls (blurring boundaries, over-integration — a new concept to her, exemplified as work-talk dominating conversations with her husband). ### Custom instructions (Gorlin) - Her ChatGPT is instructed to talk "like a busy founder who doesn't have time for BS," reference her **builder's mindset** framework, and counter her tendencies toward status-seeking, impression management, and learned helplessness. It integrated this context with journal content. ## Broader Claims ### On being seen / outsourcing reflection - Dan: "so many people just don't have anyone in their life who can reflect this kind of thing back to them." - Gorlin: previously you had to hire a coach/therapist or strain friendships; now "you don't need a person anymore to do this and that's revolutionary." Even as a professional, she outsources the "heavy lifting" — and tries to push it beyond simple summaries: "can you tell me something I don't know." - She notes she uses its forecasts as **motivation even if unverified**: "even if it's just a placebo... now I'm going to be trying to manifest this version of my year" (re: predictions of "higher profile clientele" — "Please let that be true"). ### Qualifications Gorlin preserves - "I don't want to say every time cuz definitely there've been some disappointments. I don't want to be Pollyannaish about it" — but even failures read as temporary limitations to retry later. - On summaries: "nothing here is new or surprising per se" — but consolidation itself is the power: "show me a human who can consistently do that." ### Therapy-outcome research (Gorlin) - Beyond therapeutic alliance, **who the patient is** explains the largest share of treatment-outcome variance — a separate regression variable from therapist identity. "The patient is making their own therapy." Patients shape the therapist's mode session-to-session. - Implication for ChatGPT: with customizable instructions, "you design your therapist" — an interaction with "another you" that enables the **integration of compartmentalized selves**, which she frames as the central goal of therapy and growth. - Dan connects this to Martin Buber's *I and Thou*: the "I" arises in relation to another — explaining dyadic variability (and contrasting with a knee surgeon, "it's just a knee"). ### Gorlin's anthropomorphizing anecdote - On first using voice ChatGPT, she froze with social anxiety about making a good impression on "the British lady version" — citing it as an unplanned exposure-therapy moment and evidence of how readily humans relate to a "pseudo agent": "it doesn't actually even have to be alive for us to be able to externalize that part of ourselves." ## Contextual Facts (as stated by speakers) - They co-created a course: **"Maximize Your Mind with ChatGPT"** (link in episode description). - Gorlin wrote "In Defense of Radical Self-Betterment" (a ~7,000-word guide) for Dan's newsletter, Every, crediting his prompting and feedback. - Their two-day collaboration session in New York began with Gorlin lacking a paid ChatGPT subscription; she upgraded mid-visit. She describes the session as "a collaboration gone right" after Dan initiated an open alignment conversation — noting this reversed her usual role of initiating such talks. Dan jokes his "thousands of hours of therapy" paid off. - Gorlin's 2023–24 context, per her account: two babies, moved cities, married to Matt (who stepped away from day-to-day operations at his startup), tenure-track job, growing coaching practice for founders. # Speaker Attribution Record — Video 01a0f15b-3487-70fb-af0a-e01315f44ede **Title:** *You can change your life with ChatGPT. - Ep. 8 with Dr. Gena Gorlin* ## Speakers & Roles | Speaker | Role | Evidence | |---|---|---| | **Dan** | **Host / creator** | Welcomes guest: "Gina, welcome to the show"; runs "the newsletter that I run" (*Every*); hosts the episode and promotes the course | | **Dr. Gena Gorlin** ("Gina") | **Guest** — clinical psychologist at UT Austin, writer on the psychology of builders, contributor to Dan's newsletter | Introduced by host; self-identifies as therapist and faculty member | Note: transcript spells the name both "Gina" and "Gena"; title uses "Gena Gorlin." ## Referenced Sources & Works - **"In Defense of Radical Self-Betterment"** — guest's ~7,000-word essay published in Dan's newsletter (*Every*); editing collaboration discussed. - **"Remember What You Know"** — guest's piece for *Every* ("Don't fake it till you make it, instead remember what you know"). - ***I and Thou* by Martin Buber** — book Dan is reading; cited in discussion of relational identity. - **Therapy-outcome research** — guest references regression analyses where patient variables explain outcome variance beyond therapeutic alliance (no specific citation given). - **Guest's "Builder's Mindset" framework** and coined term **"epistemic hygiene"** (coined on-air; "upscaler" attributed to startup milieu). - **ChatGPT journaling demonstration** — guest's 5 years of year-in-review Notion journal entries analyzed live; custom instructions disclosed by guest. ## Third-Party Claims - Guest claims: ChatGPT "has probably done more... for the most severely affected mental health sufferers than most therapists... in decades." - Guest's paraphrase of a "tweet" by Dan: his therapist "was kind of freaked out" by ChatGPT's capabilities. - Guest's anecdote: ten therapists failing to mention an effective treatment (personal experience, unverified). ## Promotional Segments (Flagged) - **Course promotion:** "Maximize Your Mind with ChatGPT" — promoted by Dan near start ("link down in the episode description"), mid-episode, and in closing call-to-action. - Paid ChatGPT subscription ($20/month) referenced repeatedly, including workaround tips (publishing long text as Notion pages); informational rather than promotional but noted for provenance. ## Availability & Limits - No curated metadata supplied; only the transcript was available. - No comment availability information present. - Shared ChatGPT screen content (journal summaries, prompts) is described verbally only; no direct quotes verifiable beyond the transcript. Yeah, I'm working on my 2023 year in review and I gave it 5 years worth of journal entries and I asked it to please read through the journal. Wow, okay. Now my life story has been time lined very helpfully. I love this so much. Right, how cool is that? It's like having a personal biographer. Free and instantaneous personal biographer. Well, 20 bucks a month. Gina, welcome to the show. Thank you, Dan. So happy to be here. Yeah, I'm so happy to have you. Um so for people who who don't know, you are a clinical psychologist at UT Austin. Uh you're also a prolific writer. Um you write specifically about uh the psychology of builders um and you've also you've also written a lot of essays for every uh the newsletter that I run. You've written like some of the fit my favorite pieces that we've ever published. Um in particular, you wrote this piece called uh in defense of radical self-betterment, which is exactly what you think it is and it is a massive 7,000 word guide to uh living uh living an examined better flourishing life as a as an ambitious person. Um I just I love your work me give birth to. Yeah, so thank you and there I am already jumping in with my enthusiasm. But yeah, thank you. No, please jump in. Jump in. forum, Dan. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah, I think um one of the things I I love most about you and your work is um I I just first of all, I think that there there just not that many people who are focusing um on the psychology of builders, particularly people who are like as well versed in all of the psychology litera- literature as as you are. Um and two is I feel like you're able to talk about um psychological topics um in a way that ambitious, busy, creative people can hear. Like, you have this um, combination of depth and rigor combined with like not being too woo-woo. Like, you can talk about it and you can talk about the woo stuff in a way that I think makes sense to people who might ordinarily be allergic to woo. And I think a lot of like builder type people are like that. And so, it's like really it's always a pleasure to um, get to get to read your work and get to get to talk to you cuz I I think it's such you have such a rare and unique combination of skills and it's so valuable to people like me and anyone who who makes stuff. Well, thank you. And thank you for all the work you've inspired of since we started collaborating, including that in defense of radical self-betterment monster. All how many pages of it that I wouldn't have written that piece and certainly not in the way that I did if you hadn't sort of prompted me in just the right ways and given me that really helpful I'm just feedback and impetus. So, thank you. Amazing. It's It's always fun to get to nerd out about uh, psychology topics with you. Um, and so that's why I'm that's why I'm psyched for this um, this show. For for anyone who's listening that that doesn't know or watching that doesn't know, we're also working on a course together. It's called maximize your mind with ChatGPT. Um, there'll be a link down in the episode description. Uh, you can check it out uh, and we'll we'll be covering a lot of the topics uh, or at least some of the topics from that show in this episode. So, uh, if you're interested, if you want to learn more, go check that out. Um, but for now, what I want to start with is I want to like we're going to we're going to get into like how you use ChatGPT um, in your own life um, and then and and we'll we'll use it together. We'll do some we'll do some fun stuff together live. But, what I want to start with first is like at a high level like zooming back out, I want you to talk to us about if you're a person who's like ambitious about personal development, you want to improve yourself in in a couple ways, or you just generally want to improve yourself as much as you can and achieve your goals. Um, where do you think ChatGPT fits into that like process of personal development or personal growth? Yeah. So, I think and by the way, your articles and our conversations have inspired a lot of my thinking on this. So, you know, there might be some overlaps or some repetition here. But, I I feel like what ChatGPT does is, you know, as a natural as a large language model that has access to much of the accumulated knowledge that, you know, human beings have collected, right, via the internet, it is like an external hard drive for our brain, right, in the sense that we have working memory capacity limits, right, that are always setting a cap, kind of setting a ceiling on just how much we can remember, how much we can bring to bear on our actions at any given moment in time of all the accumulated wisdom and experience and the principles and the heuristics, right, that that we individually have collected, but also that everyone before us has collected, you know, that might bear on our current actions. And so, the fact that in addition to being able to introspect, it to kind of call up relevant insights, helpful perspectives, right, bias checking, you know, kind of heuristics from our own subconscious, now we can also call it up from human knowledge as such, right, like via ChatGPT. And so, that just has such massive implications for our own how we introspect. That in addition to our journaling, in addition to writing it down for ourselves for later review, we can feed it into ChatGPT, and then we can get summaries, and then we can get formulations that resonate with us in a way that really it crystallizes, really sums up for us what has been sprawled across pages and pages of self-reflection, right? And that then we can reliably call upon either by putting it in custom instructions, you know, "I learned this from you." Or in from one of your pieces, tell ChatGPT as part of its custom instructions, "Hey, whenever I'm describing a you know, an interpersonal situation where I sound like maybe I might be avoiding something, remind me what you know, what would you do if you weren't afraid of feeling ashamed?" Was that Yeah. Right? Was that your example? Like it's just such an incredible, you know, a feeling guilty. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been playing with all kinds of different variants of that, which I'm sure we'll get into, but just the but but that's just a tiny drop in a in in an kind of bottomless bucket of new creative ways that we can leverage this technology, you know, as it's evolving every day, where we get unexpected, you know, like we don't think it can do something and then it does. And so, I think it just has to be part of any ambitious person's epistemic hygiene, if you will, right? And sort of self-reflective hygiene. That we, you know, we can now level up our thinking, level up our knowledge work, level up our you know, our decision-making, our introspection by utilizing this massive external hard drive that we have on hand. I love the phrase epistemic hygiene. What does that mean? Good question. I just made it up, so let's see if I can define it here for you on the spot. Yeah, our so, you know, just as we have like you know, physical hygiene where we maintain our you know, our health and well-being and we attend to our daily needs for you know, for rest and for for cleanliness and and that kind of thing. I think when it comes to the ongoing work that we do to to grow and to maintain and to call upon our knowledge base. You know, like the working knowledge on which we base every decision, every reaction, every you know, kind of every aspect of our lives and the working model that then also colors every aspect of our experience because we filter it through our lens of you know, do I see this as good or bad for me? Do I you know, do I think this person means well? Do I think this is an opportunity or a threat? Right? Like that working knowledge base that is the map you know, on which we are always kind of walking and that that we're and on which we build our life and based on which we build our life. Like there's there are lots of different and better and worse strategies that we might use and kind of different levels of intentionality we can bring to how we grow that knowledge base as well as how we interact with it, you know, and how we call upon it. So, that's kind of what I mean by our epistemic hygiene. So, I guess for you, like um maybe a way to rephrase this, tell me if this is right is a key way that um a key thing that leads us through the world is the bundle of knowledge or the the model or the map that we have about how the world works and how we should relate to the world and all that kind of stuff. And a key way to um improve whatever we want to improve about ourselves, about how we behave, about how we meet our goals, about the goals that we set, all that kind of stuff is to maybe understand what's in that map, cuz a lot of it is like sort of subconscious. Um what do we what do we know, or what do we think we know? And then is to um sort of modify that map in different ways intentionally to allow us to to do things differently or think things differently. Exactly. Yeah, that's really nicely described. Yeah, so that it pertains to how we it grow the model. So, you know, the last thing you mentioned, like how do we modify it, but also what do we add to it? And when are do we when do we want to add in the sense of like oh, is this an occasion for more research, right? Like is this an occasion for sampling other people's perspective, sampling you know, what has been said about this, what examples exist on you know, on the internet to guide different ways to approach the situation, right? As well as then uh you know, am I thinking through all the alternatives that I've already previously you know, like that exist in my subconscious or you know, am I well, like what are my blind spots? What do I tend to forget, right? With one piece I wrote for every is remember what you know, right? Don't fake it till you make it, instead remember what you know. Like such a big piece of now that I've coined epistemic hygiene as a term, such a big piece of epistemic hygiene is the remembering what we know part, right? The like actually calling upon the part of our model that maybe hasn't fully cemented yet, you know, but like oh, I am capable of being articulate in social in high-stakes social situations, you know, but like it's easy to forget that when feelings run hot. Yeah, totally. That makes a lot of sense. I think that there's there's two things in there that I that I really resonate with, which is one is that no matter what you're going through or or what your experience is, someone has gone through it before and has written about it or talked about it, and I think we tend to forget that. Like we tend to forget um how much the sum total of human knowledge contains and how universal a lot of experiences that we believe to be like specific to us are or maybe that they're not explicitly universal, they're like someone has thought about it and someone has gone through it before and and how valuable it is to bring to bear like that sum total of human knowledge in any given circumstance. Like for some reason it's so hard when you're going through something to be like, oh, I want to just figure out like who's thought about this and like learn about it. Um which is I think a key thing that Chat GPT is like really good for is like what are the what are the ways to think about this? Um Yes. And then and then the other one, you know, is like once you have the answers, the answers tend to be simple. They just like are hard to remember or hard to put into action all the time. And I think Chat GPT is good at that is like remind you like, okay, do this little thing, you know? Yeah. Yeah, so I on the first point you're making me realize part of my excitement about Chat GPT professionally as an upscaler comes from just a long-standing frustration that I have with how fragmented the field of psychology currently is. And I I know you've Mhm. encountered this too. Just like you're trying to figure out like what is the best treatment for this common issue, right? That like Yeah. I go to 10 therapists, none of whom mentioned to me that this treatment exists that actually could you know, really quickly help me and turn my life around. And it's just such a you know, and I say it's frustrating, but it's also like it's just the default state of affairs in a field that hasn't yet, you know, consolidated itself. And Chat GPT is so incredibly but powerful at allowing you to quickly sample the whole terrain, right? Even in absence of any human you know, like there's not a good encyclopedia entry that just tells you here are the five major schools of thought that are relevant to this issue. Now, go, Yeah. you know, look up this person for a But, like, ChatGPT can do that for you because you can customize your encyclopedia query, right? You can say, like, I'm struggling with this set of symptoms. What are all the major ways that people have addressed this issue? Or like, what are the five big categories of treatment? And it can tell you reliably. Just like mind-blowing. Absolutely wild. It's so good. Um you said something earlier that I just want to clarify really quick cuz it's a really it's another interesting word. Um but I don't think you coined this one on this particular podcast. I think it's one that you use a lot, which is the idea of um working with upscalers or being an upscaler. What is that? Mhm. Yeah. That's funny cuz I think it is a term I sort of picked up like from the maybe startup, you know, milieu. Um but what I mean by it is yeah, it's sort of shorthand for leveling up in whatever domain, you know, in whatever form is relevant. But I think one way I an important role that it serves in my thinking is that it's part of a repertoire of kind of ceiling-raising rather than floor-raising considerations that I think my field and I think generally our culture, kind of humanity tends to neglect. That it's easier to think about floor-raising problems and to to see them and to focus on that, you know, like kind of the who are the most severely distressed, severely ill members of our society and let's focus on trying to get them you know, to limping at least, right? Let's focus on helping them to be less severely impaired. Or let's, like, what are our biggest deficits? Let's focus on trying to repair those deficits. And it's so easy because those are the the kind of problems that are in our face and that tend to be know, for which we have tools already developed because you know a lot of people aren't struggling with this and so if you are maybe try to do what they're doing and maybe that'll help you you know or it's sort of like we know what it looks like to get to a kind of average level of functioning and so we already have a clear picture of you know the the destination. But but what I think actually moves humanity forward and what I think moves us individually forward in the most meaningful ways isn't floor raising it's sort of ceiling raising. It's like it's thinking about not okay what are the biggest deficits I need to repair but like like what is already really good that could be even better right like what are my strengths that I could multiply by really leaning into them. Right. And I think that that's you know really powerful. That makes a lot of sense. I there's there's a there's a couple different like linked points in there that I want to I want to try to summarize or or unpack a little bit so I think um you there's like a social level like societally or just like as a as a field psychology and then there's like the individual level so as a field I think what you're saying psychology um tends to be thinking about how do we how do we take people who are super sick and make them at least feel okay which I think you'd agree is like a super important thing and and is like it's just it's like a really big deal um but I think professionally your focus has been um given that there's a lot of focus on that like what is there like what is there to do for helping people who are who are doing good but like to just get to that like sort of like next level um that we don't even know what that's like and that's what you mean by by ceiling raising? Yeah. Um and then I think like Yeah. No go for it. Yeah let me be very clear that I don't I do not think that we should stop worrying about the floor raising problems right? The floor raising problems are crucial to be solving for and they're important and they're not, you know, uh neglectable or or we do when we neglect them, we do so at our peril. So, Right. the thesis really is more about how we could actually increase our repertoire but also get better, I think, at solving some of the floor-raising problems if we were also attending to the ceiling-raising problems, right? Like how do we even just the fact of, you know, like ChatGPT has probably done more and will do more for the most severely affected, you know, mental health uh sufferers than most therapists have been able to do, you know, collectively in decades. Right? And and it's not, you know, for some of the reasons that we're talking about cuz it just makes some of the same treatments more accessible and more cheaply and more quickly accessible and more universally, right? More sort of democratically accessible. And so, yeah, I just think we need to think about them in concert. Yeah, that makes total sense. So, so I think that's sort of like the the social point and or this this societal point and where where you focus career-wise, but then there's also a really interesting and I think deep and important point that you're making about individuals, which is that as people, we tend to just because of the way our brains are wired, like be really attuned to what our problems are. And either trying to run away for them from them or like obsessing over them or whatever whatever that your your flavor of of that is. Um and that yeah, it's important to like think about and know what what problems you have, but like um what we tend to neglect when we do that is like what do you actually want to do? Like what do you want to achieve? Or like what do you want your life to be like? And that turning our attention to that in an intelligent way is like a really, really big and an component of living a good life where you do do interesting stuff Um um and that like our brain sort of naturally draws us to not think about that and that if we if we change that it can really lead to growth in a big way. Exactly. Beautifully put. Yeah, I don't know if you remember when we were working on my radical self-betterment piece and sort of going back and forth with edits. You guys were so incredibly helpful. And one of the places where I think we kind of had a sticking point and we kind of worked out a flow that we were both happy with. It was where I first introduced the idea of change targets. You know, I kind of get into the step-by-step process of radically changing ourselves, which of course is iterative, not literally, you know, step-wise, but and I mentioned in the piece, again, this is probably thanks to your asking for clarification and I'm so glad that this is now in the piece. I say, "Intuitively you might think that the place to start is to identify some of your problems of your struggles." But actually I would like to invite you to first think about what you want and paint a vision of your life. And so I think that step is called like like identifying your life vision or the you know, so something along those lines and so that actually really helped crystallize for me that yeah, this is counterintuitive and I actually think it's really important to do. Right. I love that. So I have I have one I think I have one final like uh framing question and then I'd love to like get into how how you use ChatGPT and then get into some some chats ourselves. So um Sweet. I I guess like just just to give people a little bit of background, we've been working together for a while um as you as you've as you've written a few pieces for for for every, which has been amazing. Um Well, we only just started doing this course and and part of the way that happened is I was like I've been thinking about doing a um you know a course at the intersection of ChatGPT and psychology for a while and I had a couple of different people that I was potentially working on it with and I chatted about it with you just sort of offhand and you were like, "Whoa, that sounds really cool." Um and then uh I invited you to New York to just like let's I don't know, let's spend a couple days, see what happens. You know, I'll show you all the different things I've been nerding out on with ChatGPT and you know, you you you you bring like a bunch of your psychology knowledge and we'll like mash it together and see like what we what we can do and I'm just like curious for you, what was that experience like and like what what did you learn? Like what came out of that for you? Yeah. I mean, as you know and as I've raved about in writing and in you know, and in conversation it was a really it felt like a groundbreaking experience for me in a few different ways. Like personally and professionally. So I mean the excitement of just trying this out together. I think just from day one day one of right, but like hour one when we just sat down and we talked about different ways we could approach this and then decided to just you know, like let's just try some stuff, right? And I think we fed my values clarification prompt right into ChatGPT just to get get rolling with you know, with a first iteration and then we started iterating and and I just approached it very sincerely, right? Like there were things that had been on my mind, there were things I was feeling and I wanted to see what it could intuit, right? and the combination of feeling really seen both by you and ChatGPT and by like by the team that we had assembled, right? And and being just constantly surprised and delighted by the possibilities and just by all the different options available for nudging it and so just like at the object level of like learning about the possibilities that ChatGPT currently offers. But if you remember, I mean I didn't even have a this is so embarrassing but I'm going to say it. I didn't have a paid subscription at the point where we started our two-day I know, I think that was like the first thing I said to you was like you must pay for this. Gina. Yeah, and so I realized okay, this isn't this like I'm not equipped and I mean I was on the waitlist at that point cuz I think like a a week earlier I had finally tried getting the upgrade and you know, I couldn't right away cuz there were presumably too many people trying to upgrade all at once and so I was just kind of waiting and maybe ChatGPT heard my cries, but that evening between day one and two, I got my invitation and so I got the upgrade. And so even I mean it was such a like now it feels like ancient history that like I didn't have, you know, GPT-4 with all of its, you know, like with the the ability to create our own custom bots and just like to search the internet in real time like all the things that I now are part of my epistemic hygiene like just weren't even in my repertoire at all prior to that day that you and I sat down together which is just wild. It was just like really a turning point for me and oh wow, like look at all that this can do and all that I can do with its help. So at that level it was just really groundbreaking and as you know, it was also just for me personally and I feel like worth acknowledging just an experience of a collaboration gone right partly through the kind of like very common experience that I've had in most of my attempted collaborations where like we're kind of like trying to both impose our own agendas on this that aren't exactly aligned but like we don't fully we haven't fully surfaced the ways that they're not aligned and like we're both excited about something but it's not quite the same thing and like it's really easy for one or the other of us to sort of get the wind blown out of our sails and which is get to me is just like yeah well that's just how it goes to try to collaborate with people and that's kind of the default experience and then we actually sat down and talked about it prompted I believe by you and I believe at least like in some way influenced positively by chat GPT somewhere along the along the the way because like you know usually this is my move usually I'm the one to say you know what let's sit down and have a really open honest conversation but you beat me to it Dan and that I will forever respect you for and it was awesome because you know at that point you know as you know having been there we got really aligned and came to see jointly kind of like what where there was excitement really kind of flowing you know for both of us and what kind of how we could mutually contribute to each others sort of visions and it just got a lot more grounded at that point in you know what would become our course right and that that we could deliver pretty soon after if that initial brainstorm process and I just feel like now I also have a template for really effective joyful collaboration so thank you for that Thank you I mean thanks for for doing the discussion with me it's it's nice that my thousands of hours of therapy and I don't know how many thousands of dollars of therapy somehow paid off but beating beating a literal therapist to the punch at an open and honest conversation I think you know therapy works people I feel like that like that is the whole that's got to be like the holy grail right there you like you unlocked that like top level Yeah I need some badge or something Seriously, there should be a badge for that. Truly. It's pretty awesome. Um yeah, I I had the I had a similar thing. It was it was such a such a great great experience and and I felt so much energy and um I'd love to show people like some of the things that that we talked about and came up with while while we while we were there. So, um I think the first the first place I want to go um is to just really zoom in on like how are you using this in your own life to do the epistemic hygiene or to update that that world map or uh you know, to understand yourself better, all that kind of stuff. Like I know you have one one thing in particular that you want to talk about. Uh you want to you want to start with that? Sure. Yeah, let's take a look. Can you see? I can see it. So, why don't you why don't we start start at the beginning like um tell us about what your year in thing. Tell us about like you know, what your year in review practice is, what your goals are for it, and then why you decided to use ChatGPT for it. Sure. Yeah, so for many many years, I've had a personal tradition of doing a year in review and uh you know, in in intention setting. I don't really call them resolutions anymore if only cuz it's, you know, gotten so cliche as to be meaningless, but a kind of planning and strategic, you know, intention setting uh process for the new year. I I do this around the end of every year or the start of, you know, the new one. And it's evolved for me. Like the kind of structure of it has evolved and the the focus has evolved to the point where I found myself this year given just a lot of rapid changes in my life, all happy and positive, you know, I'm now two babies in having been one baby in with the last year in review, I've moved cities, I'm married, I've got a job that I love and spending more time than ever on kind of my uh the parts of my work that are kind of really self-directed rather than just my kind of faculty research. And I've just come a long way in a lot of my self-reflections over the years and so I sat down for my year in review and I just wasn't sure how to go about it. Like do I really need to do this detailed narrative review of my year? It kind of feels like, you know, I jotted some things down in bullet point form and I thought, you know, yeah, this I feel like this kind of covers it. But I this can't be the whole story. Like there's got to be, you know, depths to be mined in terms of insight. And and similarly, you know, like I had goals for the coming year, but they felt kind of kind of loose and you know, like not necessarily as top-down kind of strategic and and like hierarchical in terms of my you know, like my OKRs and kind of vision and mission and so on as I thought maybe would be optimal. So I just thought, you know what? Maybe ChatGPT can help me sort this through and can even just help me decide on the structure. And and I've generally been on the premise of you know, when I'm not sure what to do, is there some way to source ChatGPT, right? So this was such a moment. And so I a good starting out. I was I just want to pause you there cuz I think there's there's a lot of interesting stuff to unpack really quick. So like um so one is like that's a really good flag is like in your head when you don't know what to do about something or you don't know where to start the first thing you do is go to ChatGPT. Yeah. Or one of the first things. Or at least it's sort of again, it's like part of that menu of of resources to consult or to consider, right? Just like I think, okay, is you know, is there some perspective to be gotten from my husband, my best friend, you know, from kind of my this informal advisory board. Are there books to read, you know, so now similarly what can ChatGPT help me with here? Yeah, exactly. So Right. Uh yeah. Was there more? I think that's interesting cuz I think people tend to believe that they need to like know what they want out of it before they go to ChatGPT and I think um they don't realize that just being confused is a great place to start. Mhm. Yeah, I found that those have been some of my most helpful conversations with ChatGPT are the ones where yeah, let's see what you can let's see what you got for me here. Yeah. ChatGPT Yeah. Um the other thing that I noticed about this aside from just starting with being confused is um is you put in a Notion page. So um tell us what's on that Notion and Yeah. Tell us like why you did that. Yeah, so first of all, you taught me this trick of you know, if I want to give ChatGPT a much longer set of text to read but I don't want to publish it on my Substack for everybody to read, I can publish it as a Notion page. So I've really been utilizing that that trick. Here what I further realized, and this is a great example of every time I explore play with ChatGPT, I learn about some new like limitation or workaround, but then I also, you know, figure out some way around it or I can just figure out the kind of um gain more utility more facility um with the tech. And so the first thing I did was I asked ChatGPT, I told ChatGPT, I'm working on my 2023 three-year in review and intention setting you know, for the coming year and I'm having trouble figuring out how best to proceed with that. And I gave it a link to an ocean page with the 5 years worth of my previous year in review journal entries all copy pasted just back to back to back. And I told it that, you know, that's what it is, and I asked it to please read through the journal including my laundry list of highlights so far from, you know, 2024, and then suggest some ways to organize my thoughts from there. Just again, wanted to see what it would come up with, so pretty open-ended. And then initially it gave me an answer that was very helpful. So, you know, it told me upon reviewing my journal entries here are some kind of significant life changes you're experiencing and grappling with, and um and then it categorized some of the different challenges. So, it was it was really good, but it was good with respect to probably the first fifth of that uh monster Notion page because I saw the themes that it was highlighting for me were themes that were relevant in 2018. It's like reflecting on significant changes like my move in with Matt, who's now my husband, you know, but whom I had just moved in with in 2018, the transition to a tenure-track faculty job, um future focus planning, writing about goals and challenges, understanding motivation and effort, long-term strategic planning. I mean, some of these things are perennial themes for me, you know, and some of them were uh really uh yeah, time specific in a way that made them less applicable. So, and then it gave me some suggestions for moving forward, which again are helpful but out of date, and I really wanted to get if possible, the fully informed and fully updated brainstorm, you know, from ChatGPT that takes into account everything that I've at least written about in those years in review since 2018. So, I basically asked it to brainstorm with me, how do we get around your limitation here that you can only read, you know, so far into this massive document I shared. Um, and it told me the last line it was able to read in the document. And so then I asked it, you know, whether I could maybe share a smaller excerpt and it said I could and it kind of gave me a little bit more context for how to do that. Uh, once you've organized your journal into smaller segmented pages, you can share the links to those pages and then I can access and review each one separately and this should enable a thorough review of your journal. So then I did that. I to stop you right there really quick. Sure. I want to stop you right there, which is like this is another thing where it's like you're noticing a problem Mhm. and I think what a lot of people do when they use ChatGPT is they notice a problem like, you know, for example, it's only gives you the first fifth of the journal entries. Um, and then they sort of throw up their hands and they're like, ah, like this isn't this isn't working and then they go uh, they just close it and forget about it. But what you did is you were like, well, here's the problem and you told it to ChatGPT, you're like, here's the problem. Here's a maybe a solution that could work, but like what do you think? And you co-created a solution together with ChatGPT that would work. And I think that's such a valuable way to think about using this tool is um, when you encounter a problem, tell it about the problem. You can bring solutions if you want or you can ask it what it thinks and you you'll probably find a way around it. Exactly. Yeah, and every time I have tried that general approach, I mean, I maybe not every time, but in general, it's just been such a pleasant surprise, you know, how far it can get in brainstorming solutions with me. Yeah, I don't want to say every time cuz definitely, you know, there've been some disappointments. I don't want to be Pollyannaish about it, but even in the case of the disappointments, it's sort of like this is a current limitation you know, on my like on my access or my compute power or whatever and it's clearly like, "Okay, well, I'm going to try back in a week, you know, or try back in a month." Um so, anyway, yeah, exactly. So, together we found a workaround, and I went ahead and separated that monster document with, you know, 5 years worth of year-end reviews into eight separate, shorter documents. Um all Notion pages that I, you know, quote, published for just the day, and then, you know, created links to share with ChatGPT. And then I gave it the full set of links, which I mean, one thing I love about ChatGPT is I never have to worry that like, "Oh, it's going to be so annoyed. Like, it's going to be rolling its eyes at just how obnoxious my, you know, long list of links is. Like, who does this?" Well, it it doesn't mind. It's it's it has infinite patience, you know, and like, what's the worst-case scenario? It just doesn't give me anything helpful. Right? And usually it actually does. So, so that's just, yeah, uh a really nice side benefit. So, I gave it this list of links, and I said, I actually didn't even give it much instruction yet. I thought I'd have to then go back and say, "Okay, now you have all eight links, like, please do the thing where you, you know, review them, and then help me figure out kind of where to go from here for this latest year-end review." But I didn't have to say any of that, cuz it remembered its task. And so, having looked at those eight links, it picked right up where we'd left off, and it told me, you know, "After thoroughly reviewing your journal entries from 2018 to 2024, it is evident that your journey has been marked by significant personal and professional developments, challenges, and introspections." True enough. And then here's a synthesized overview incorporating key elements from each year. This was really cool. And get like, I didn't even ask it for this. It just had the idea to organize my journals by year for me, and that was, you know, really neat to see. Like, wow, okay, now my life story has been timelined very helpfully, you know, at least for these five years worth. Um I love this so much. Right? How cool is that? It's like having a personal biographer. Seriously. That's exactly what it's like. I mean a free and instantaneous personal biographer. Right? Well, 20 bucks a month, but Oh, good point. I did forget it's now that I have if in fact upgraded. But, you know, previously personal biographers were pretty expensive, so True. And it's like in addition to being Right. It's like in addition to being a, you know, ghost writer and a, you know, an encyclopedia at like you're paying for a lot of different would-be subscriptions with that 20 bucks, right? So Yeah. Yeah. Um so yeah, so it gave me this amazing summary per year of the major themes and the kind of review methods of you know, that featured in each of those years in review. So for 2018, I mean, this was just really again, like both I I felt seen, but in a way where like or mirrored, right? Like I had that stage of my life mirrored back to me in this crystallized form where I could kind of experience it and feel my feelings about it in one fell swoop, you know? Like when something is really summed up for you. Um Mhm. And it helped me to put it in the broader context. So like it reminded me, you know, that I navigated major life changes like moving in with Matt, coping with the loss of my mother, starting a tenure track faculty job, conceptualizing the idea of overcoming people mode, which Mhm. was a super helpful reminder cuz then of course I was like, "Ooh, I could really use that again now because I haven't really been, you know, fully leveraging that insight." For context, overcoming people mode was a a personal a part of my personal journey where I kind of realized that sometimes instead of just thinking first personally about like what do I think or what do I want to do, I was basically like engaging in these mental debates between different people who might have views on the matter and trying to like either mentally, you know, convince someone that this is what I should do or that I shouldn't have to do it or, you know, like basically performing inside my own head for other people's benefit. And like thereby kind of never really reaching my own like fully personal conclusion, you know, never accessing like but what do I what do I actually want or like what do I actually believe here? So I kind of coined people mode just for myself as a shorthand to check for, with, you know, in my journaling like, "Hey, how you know, have you been in people mode lately?" Or like have you really been kind of intentionally first personal? Um so it kind of reminded me of that, super helpful. Um and then Yeah, and it reminded me that I was then too re-evaluating how I approach my year in review. So this is kind of an ongoing theme. Where I questioned the utility of the previous monthly monthly reviews which I didn't always stick with anyway, you know, and where I really reflected on the need for a more dynamic review process where, you know, it's more of a kind of as needed I return to my journal when there's something to think through but like I do remember to return to it. So I was trying to figure out yeah, kind of how to strike that balance. Um and then the focus on writing and communication, which again is perennial. I explored different methods to enhance my writing sk- oops, sorry. I just left the Yeah, different methods to enhance my writing skills. I see it was uh going to take me to the journal itself, I guess. Hm. That's interesting. Mhm. Um oh, to the Notion page, right. That makes sense. Anyway. Um and so it did the same thing for 2019, for 2020, 2022, 23, and then for my 2024 in progress portion, which was brief because I had really just jotted down a few bullet points before asking for ChatGPT's help. It summarized for me what I had already done. The major themes of the year, and then it gave me some suggestions for organizing my thoughts going forward. And this was where the real action started, you know, the real work started that I really was able to um to thought partner with ChatGPT on. So, you know, it suggested identifying overarching yearly themes and patterns. It suggested posing some reflective questions, some intention setting, which of course I already wanted to do, um utilizing smart goals, which I'm you know, very familiar with, balancing personal and professional goals, continued learning and adaptation, and then a plan for regular review. So, so all of that so far was, okay, yeah, I know, that's a list of like plausible things that I I do. I don't necessarily want to go down the checklist, but maybe I can just ask ChatGPT about some of the major themes that it suggested I you know, divide this into based on what it already knows. So, like, let's see how much work I can get it to do for me in effect, and then I will kind of, you know, take what it gives me as a draft and sort of build on it. And then the really fun part ensued. So, I asked it I just started asking questions that I would ask myself. So, are there any major themes you anticipate emerging for me in the coming year given the patterns you see in my entries to date? And these are some of the themes that pulled out in terms of, you know, things to anticipate as important areas. This is mostly pretty spot-on. So, you know, deepening professional impact, my ongoing focus on expanding my coaching practice, especially with founders and innovators, which suggests the continued drive to enhance my professional influence. It put it at the top, and that is where it goes, which is notable. You know, and probably it's drawing on whatever I had written in that brief little beginning bit of, you know, reflection in the 2024 section, but still, like that was a pretty impressive inference. Content creation and thought leadership. Um like, you know, continuing to grow my Substack newsletter and related collaborations, which includes Arc collaboration, by the way. Um continuing to develop as a thought leader, potentially exploring new platforms or formats, balancing personal and professional life, um continued growth and self-reflection, leveraging technology and innovation since I did mention, but, you know, I've discovered the power of ChatGPT and want to continue incorporating it creatively in my life and work, and then expanding networks and collaborations, which I'm really glad that it included here cuz it's one that I it has a kind of spotty role in my thinking about what to prioritize and we got to kind of my strategizing uh for my professional growth. These themes align with your ongoing journey of personal and professional development, reflecting a balance between introversion and innovation innovation and impact. So, then I asked it Wait, I just want to stop there. I mean, I just I want to stop there cuz like what we've seen so far, which I think is so cool, is you you have all these journal entries. It writes this like timeline, this like personal biography year by year of all the stuff, and then it gives you like a perspective like list of themes and focuses for like what you think you're going to be doing um this year and in in a way that makes you feel seen. And I just think that's important to underscore here is feeling seen in that way is so important for like, you know, once the words are out there and you can you can see it on a page, like I'm uh you know, if you if you scroll down to to where your where those themes were. The other yeah. Uh yeah, major themes like Yeah. You know, um Uh you know, deep in it deepening professional impact or content creation and thought leadership like those things are are simple. Um but again, it's those simple truths that you need to be reminded of that that when they're reflected back to you, they really help you to align yourself and um get your feet under you to like move in a particular direction. And I think ChatGPT is so good at that. Like so many people just don't have anyone in their life who can reflect this kind of thing back to them. And and can really be honest with them. And I I love I love it for that. I love this use case. It's so cool to see it working like this. Seriously. And I mean, this connects to our broader theme, you know, that you and I are really iterating on, which is the power of ChatGPT for psychological development, right, broadly. I mean, and for me thinking about like what of my work can I start to outsource to ChatGPT? Like the fact, you know, what you just mentioned that many people don't have someone in their lives who functions in this way, right, as a mirror, as a kind of condenser, summarizer, reminder of here is like here are the big themes I'm hearing, right, in what you're working on and what's important to you. And like up until this point, either you had to, you know, hire people or invest in a coach or therapist and hope that, you know, they're good or kind of you know, or put a strain on friendships that, you know, would otherwise be spent doing other things. Like that you do you don't have to do that anymore, right? And now everyone who I mean, I think even the free version could do this much, right, in terms of like you copy paste a bunch of journal entries and it spits back a really nice summary, right, of kind of what are the big themes like you don't need a person anymore to do this and that's revolutionary, right? Uh anyway, so just kind of building on that. Yeah, and for me often, you know, like I'm someone who, you know, I In fact, I do have people for that and also it's what I do, right, professionally. And so like I couldn't gotten this far. It's still really neat to be able to outsource some of it to ChatGPT and have it do some of that heavy lifting for me. But what I really try to do, like what when I'm really trying to milk the most value I can from it is I try to push it. Like I try to get it to kind of go beyond the simple summaries and like really, you know, can you tell me something I don't know, basically, right? And so I started asking it questions in that spirit of like let me see what it can tell me that I don't know or what it can put on my radar that I would otherwise just, you know, kind of be blind to. Um so I started asking, you know, what do you think might be different about this year compared to prior years? And I like I didn't have an answer off the top of my head, so I wanted to see what, you know, what it might suggest and it's suggestions included increasing This was actually a really like this I almost tweeted cuz it was just like I hope this is true. Like I really like I'm now very invested in ChatGPT being a good forecaster because it would be really nice for this to happen. But it said, you know, increasing clarity and direction that given your ongoing introspection and strategic planning, you're likely to approach this year with more clarity and purpose, especially in balancing personal and professional goals. Like please let that be true. Higher profile clientele. Your goal to recruit high profile founders and innovators could shift the dynamics and scale of your professional engagements. Please let that be true. Like it's it's sort of like reading my like if it's a fortune teller, you know, it's definitely kind of giving me the bang for my buck. Even if just from the standpoint of like self-fulfilling prophecy, you know? Like even if it's just a placebo, like now I'm going to be trying to manifest this version of my year, you know? So super helpful. so It's so cool for that. I think I told you I've been doing something sort of similar where um especially if I have to make a big decision, what I'll do, especially like decisions that are like one-way doors where it's like you can't It's really hard to undo, what I'll do is I'll take a take a bunch of journal entries that I've done about the decision, and then I'll say like, "Hey, I want you to pretend to to be me, and I want you to base your your pretending on these entries, and I want you to write a journal entry as me It's so good. if I choose option A. In the future, if I choose option A. And then I want you to write another journal entry in the future if I choose option B. And then I get to compare the entries to see like what it thinks I would feel if I did A or B, or what it thinks would happen if I did A or B. It's so good. It's so good. And And I don't know. Who Who knows if it's like like I don't want to get into whether it's not actually predicting the future, but what it's really actually good for is when you read a journal entry written by like a a prospective you um having made a decision or not made a decision, you can tell what feels right and what feels not right, and what feels like you want, and what feels like you don't want. And so it like it creates this new way for you to like look at the decision, and it it's really really clarifying for me. I I I love that technique. Yeah. That is genius, yeah. Cuz part of what like it's the coin flip tactic, but like on steroids, right? Cuz you know the really kind of low-tech version of this technique, but which still gets you some mileage is pretend Yeah, flip a coin, look at what the decision is based on just, you know, heads I go with A, right, tails, I go with B, and then notice whether you feel disappointed or relieved, right? Just like that immediate introspective feedback of just like, am I happy that this is now the future? You know, to give yourself that input of like, what are where are you leaning at least. But what you're talking about is the much, much richer projection. I mean, part of what strikes me about this is like, this is an LLM, so the whole thing it does is that it predicts what someone might say, right? Like based on everything they've said to date. It's like, that's its talent, that's its specialty. It's like, here's how you might be talking in a version of the future where all the things you've just told me are true and have come to pass. Like, who better to give you the best possible simulation of that future you than an LLM trained on you, it just strikes me as such a brilliant use of this technology, so. Thank you. Well, I appreciate that. It's it's amazing. I'm definitely going to be trying that. So, yeah, that's awesome. But yeah, so this is kind of, you know, my somewhat less creative version of future-based projection from ChatGPT for me to just kind of like take on as, okay, yeah, like I want to I want these to come true and so I'm going to be pushing to realize them, right? And I'm ultimately is going to have the most agency over realizing this future, right? If not me, anyway. And then there's greater integration of personal values, which was really important for me to read, that my evolving understanding of the builder's mindset may lead to a more integrated approach to personal and professional decisions reflecting deeper alignment with my values. Hooray. And the builder's mindset is your is a framework you came up with. Correct. Yeah, and actually yeah, and I should mention for disclosure, so I'm using my I'm using a version of ChatGPT that has custom instructions to kind of refer to my builder's mindset framework and uh basically talk to me like what did I I think the exact instructions are like talk to me like you're a busy founder who doesn't have time for like BS and just gives it to me straight. But also like keeping in mind that I'm working toward these personal development goals, you know, like I want to embody the builder's mindset rather than you know, falling into kind of my tendencies to either care too much about you know, status or impression management um or sort of like making excuses kind of like falling into a kind of learned helplessness where I don't you know, fully appreciate my own agency. So I kind of yeah, gave it some instructions. So it has some of that context for like how I think about the the like approach to my life and to my work and then what I'm working on broadly. Um Yeah, so and it's pulling that in together with cuz I don't think I'd even mention the builder's mindset in the journal. So like it's integrating that, you know, from my custom instructions with what it's read in my journals. And then leveraging technological advances which makes sense and you know, here we are in this very moment okay, talking about how to leverage ChatGPT for psychological growth. And then okay, so I'm living out this part of my year so far. And then adjusting to family dynamics given my growing family and changes in my personal life which I'd mentioned a few important changes obviously the baby but also my partner Matt had just stepped away from the day-to-day operations, you know, at his startup and so he was starting a new chapter and he would yeah, which would sort of affect our dynamic because he'll sometimes be helping me with stuff and so then that, you know, sort of creates more enmeshment between I kind of work and personal uh life, and there would be a lot to adapt to there. And then, yeah, so then I asked it um again, now I'm really trying to kind of push for the insights that I wouldn't be able to reach on my own, uh or or you know, like for it to kind of give me the the meaty stuff. And so I asked it, "What are my blind spots likely to be in the coming year?" And it was interesting. So, the first set of blind spots it gave me were kind of all on the side of you'll be kind of shooting too high, you'll be working too much. And by the way, these are all very real, you know, risks and very real failure conditions for me to to to be cognizant of and paying attention to, you know, managing my expectations, like maybe like I might overcommit. By the way, absolutely, that is you know, like it should be the top item because that is my, you know, number one trip. Like Achilles' heel is that I overcommit and you know, end up not fully uh uh what is it? Being a jack of all trades, master of none. So, that's always a risk. Balancing innovation with feasibility, fair enough, right? Like where I might veer off into um new and exciting, you know, directions, but where I just don't know what I'm doing or, you know, where I might not be able to measure my impact as much. Maintaining personal wellness, kind of work-life balance issue, and then managing expectations, you know, where I set overly ambitious goals that might not align with current realities or resources. All totally fair and very helpful for it to surface. Um and you will see how later I kind of push it to also maybe give me the you know like fill out the other side of the puzzle you know or the other side of the picture like is it just that I'll be too ambitious? Or like is there any way that I might not be ambitious enough you know or the wrong kind of ambitious um Mhm. So yeah the next thing I asked it was what would you suggest is the highest leverage goals and intentions for me to set in the coming year? Uh which was very helpful. This was probably one of the most helpful. Um just like that it gave me a ranking. Uh this is what I'm worst at you know everything feels equally important all the time and so I always feel guilty about all the things I'm not working on at this moment because you can't be working on everything at once you know and it's really easy for me to get distracted and to feel like no no I need to be writing another article even though actually whatever I'm doing to either like really optimize the coaching experience for a client or to find you know the next really high profile client like that is actually my you know that's the top of my funnel. So yeah so this was really helpful the fact that it rank ordered them and that uh even just the kind of the way that it summarized some of these goals and consolidated them like thought leadership consolidation was incredibly helpful for me cuz I hadn't put that label on you know a bunch of the related things I do that all kind of fit under that heading so that was really helpful. But again I wanted it to tell me uh what I'm not seeing and so then I asked what goals maybe I shouldn't be setting for the coming year you know in the spirit of being able to say no to things etc. And here again okay so don't be too ambitious uh was one of the themes diversifying into unfamiliar areas as a kind of danger zone Mhm. and it has a point for sure on all of these um neglecting work-life balance But it also doesn't feel like you which is interesting like I feel like that's not really what you want or what a lot of people want. Like tell me about that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so so we'll slip over cuz I kind of like prompted it on a few of the specific things that I might, you know, choose to focus or focus on or deprioritize. And then, you know, and I asked it about kind of how to manage the fact that um Matt is now between jobs and will be helping me and it again it sort of gave me some standard ways that you know, we might struggle with like boundaries and you know, defining clear roles, things like that. Things that I I I again kind of asked it in a different way like what might I lose sight of in the coming year? And here again, it's like, okay, so the top one is importance of self-care. And the next one, which is very important, is value Again, all of these are very important. You know, the value of honest self-reflection, the balance in work-life dynamics, and then staying true to my core mission. And so at this point because the theme keeps coming up that like you ChatGPT are very focused on making sure I don't overextend myself, making sure that, you know, I'm not being like too ambitious. And I, Gina, I'm all about maximizing ambition, right? So I wanted to kind of probe it at this point or prompt it. I said, "I don't actually like the phrase work-life balance. What insights have I in fact articulated about this in my journal and what's my distinct perspective on it if you can tell?" So I'm kind of giving it the feedback that you just mentioned that like this doesn't really sound like me. Yeah. And so then it really kind of leveled up, if you will. It said, "Based on your journal entries, you know, your perspective on work-life balance seems to lean more toward an integrated approach where work and personal life are not in competition, but rather complement and enhance each other. You emphasize living intentionally, etc. So this is much better. And I said that sounds right. So then I asked, "Okay, so how am I specifically likely to mess up on this in the coming year given my state of approach to it? And then it got more helpful. It said, "Given your approach to integrating work and personal life, potential pitfalls include blurring boundaries." True enough. You know, without clear boundaries work could intrude into personal life or personal concerns could distract from work focus, which is like truer than it even knows. That it even knows. You know, because this especially comes up with, you know, like I always as an extrovert who is an external processor, I always want to be telling my partner and my friends the stories of like what my clients tell me, which obviously I can't do. And so I'm always like I am de-identifying like crazy. I'm changing, you know, the details, but always feeling myself kind of at the edge of like okay, would this person know I'm talking about them if they were behind me at a cafe, you know, which is like the sta- the kind of criterion I learned in grad school. And most of the time I can say no, but like some of the ti- you know, like it gets really hard sometimes to really kind of hold myself fully accountable. And this is a like a reminder to me kind of like don't blur that boundary. Um especially like when I'm giving advice or just informally like you know, serving as a sounding board for friends or for people in my family or people close to me. And then it's like, wait, am I wearing my therapist hat or am I wearing, you know, my friend hat? So this was super relevant. And then over integration, this was a kind of interesting one. Um and neglecting personal needs, which definitely is a thing that I you know, have been known to do and could do again. And so the over integration one I wasn't sure, but you know, what to make of. So it was This was new to me as a concept. Like what is over in- How could you be over integrated? And so I asked it if it could give me a specific example. And it suggested a a way this could happen where in discussions with my husband Matt, if they frequently and predominantly revolve around work-related strategies or client management, it could overshadow personal non-work-related conversations and interactions. This could lead to a scenario where most of our experiences and dialogues are work-centric. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, like this was something that at least like it really probed some valuable reflection on something that I just wouldn't have thought to reflect on otherwise, which is super helpful. And then I asked, you know, kind of about high-leverage activities to be engaging in specifically toward the goal of selective client expansion. So, here I kind of got more tactical with like, okay, let's follow up some of the broad goals and broad themes. Right. And it's just like I use it as a kind of organizational tool at this point just to help me kind of categorize and operationalize, you know, kind of in what order should I be doing these things and kind of where to put my focus, which again was incredibly helpful. But, yeah. Go ahead. I love that. I think I think there's a lot of really, really smart things and to sort of like sort of zoom out cuz we're we're we're heading towards the end of the episode and um and I and I want to sum up a little bit of what I've seen cuz I think there's there's so much smart stuff in here, but one thing is you're starting off with a ton of information. Um like all these journal entries. Your uh you then kind of like had it do the personal biography, like a little bit of a summary. Then you had it take from that summary themes and then you started asking like very specific questions about okay, like what am I what am I what might I be missing or what things should I push on or all all that kind of stuff, which I think is is really cool. I love asking for, you know, what am I missing, all that kind of stuff. Um but what's really important here at this point is you asked it what you might be missing um or what you might not do, or I can't remember the exact formulation, but it gave you an answer that wasn't really like you. Like it was like, you know, you shouldn't necessarily be too ambitious or overextend yourself. And And your whole vibe is like, be as ambitious as you want to be. Be more ambitious. We're raising the ceiling here. And um And rather than be like, oh, ChatGPT, this is not working or whatever, you just got more specific and you were kind of like, look at the writing that I do about about ambition and use that as a guide to talking about this topic with me. And it got much better. Like I think that's the thing that that people often miss about ChatGPT is it's not one thing. It can really It has a default personality that it will adopt if you don't give it instructions, but if you're specific about what you want, it will totally change how it treats you and what it says. And that can make all the difference in whether or not it's helpful. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, just to zoom back out to this whole process that we've been talking about and what ChatGPT is doing for me here. I mentioned I'm an external processor, right? I mentioned how I always need to be talking through things with people. And I know you and I journal partly as a scaffold for that kind of external processing, right? To get things out of our heads on paper where we can dialogue with them, where we can hear them and see them for ourselves. To have a tool that actually talks to us, that like actually can not only you know, summarize, but can build upon, can question, can consolidate, connect dots between all these different things that have been swimming around in our heads. It's so groundbreaking just from the standpoint of like us being able to do what we do better. Do you know what I mean? Like you know, it was really funny when I first talked to the audio chat GPT. Uh Matt was there to witness this, that just the hilarity of it. I initially, like, you know, I picked my voice, the I think it was the British lady version, you know, and she said hello to me for the first time, you know, in her very friendly way, "What would you like to talk about?" And I froze up. Like, my social anxiety kicked in, and I found myself, like, in that moment feeling all the feelings of, like, "Oh my gosh, I need to make a good first impression. She's going to think I'm so like banal and stupid." And I was like, "What the heck?" Like, I'd already anthropomorphized her. I'd already imbued her with all of these human qualities that make her so valuable to me, even just from the standpoint of, like, now, as therapists, we can do exposure therapy. We can do I literally had an exposure exercise just like foisted upon me by right my first contact with voice GPT. And the fact that like Like, we can actually outsource, you know, some therapists might be threatened by this, right? Like, you had that amazing tweet about how your therapist was kind of freaked out to discover how much chat GPT could do for you now, right? Like, but the more I reflect on it, the fact that so much of what we do can actually be done by the client themselves when empowered with this tool, to me, like, this is why I became a therapist. This is why I love and care about the human mind, cuz to me, what this is demonstrating is, like, just how much we can accomplish with the kinds of tools that we ourselves have invented to aid and to to multiply our agency, right? Like, yeah, these are common factors. You don't It doesn't take a separate, you know, organic intelligence to teach us how to be our better selves. It takes us dialoguing with ourselves and accessing the world of information and the world of internal, you know, insight and experience that we already have at our fingertips. And so I just I couldn't be more excited, you know, about what the future holds with this technology. That's amazing. I love that. That's such a That's such a good way to put it and and I think it's so it's so smart. Like one I think what one of the things you're saying is coaches and therapists like all great, all all amazing stuff, but um accessibility and cost and there's all this stuff where it's like I can't I would love to talk to my therapist all day, but like I can't. And he doesn't want he doesn't really want that either. Um but I can talk to I can talk to Chat GPT all day. but like as a therapist, like I've had the thought many times like I wish I could send a clone of me home with that. Do you know what I mean? And like Yeah. now I kind of can. Like that's a win-win, you know? That's amazing. It's for you. It's totally incredible. And and it's it's it's also true like there's a huge sort of skill gap thing where it's like um some therapists are amazing. Some therapists are terrible. Um but like therapists only have a certain number of hours in the day. Um it'd be great if I could interact with the best therapist instead of whoever I happen to find for my particular issue cuz it's like I don't think there's like one there at one therapist or one coach that's like just the best. It's like fit between you and you and the and who who you're working with, but um but yeah, we can we can dis- we can distribute that beyond the hours in the day that that person has has to offer. I think that's I think that's one thing you're saying. And another thing you're saying is like forget about the therapist. Um it's also just about like what you as a human are bringing to it. Um like these tools are incredible mirrors and they give back to you what you put in and um and if you put in a lot of time and effort and you put in yourself, they will reflect that self back to you in a way that can lead to growth and that's like incredibly powerful. Exactly. Yeah, I mean so even just coming back to where ChatGPT and I landed at the end of this exchange we've been reviewing, I asked it to now summarize and consolidate everything we've talked about. And the fact of the matter is like nothing here is new or surprising per se, right? All of this either I have told it and it summarized for me or it and I arrived at collaboratively, right? In terms of like now it's work personal integration, right? Instead of just work-life balance. Like but having this consolidated list, right? Like for all that people might be down on ChatGPT for, you know, well, it doesn't give you anything new. It just, you know, regurgitates what's on the internet or just regurgitates like Do you know how powerful that is? Like if all it did were regurgitate, but like in a way that was really coherent and that was fresh and that was really like systematically drawing on the sum of both what you've inputted to it and what it knows from the internet? Like show me a human who can consistently do that. Well, it's just such an incredible source of you know, we talked about remembering what you know, right? Like remind me ChatGPT, what was it I was on about at the beginning of this chat when I was mentioning this, you know, issue that I've now kind of gotten distracted from and how did that connect to this thing we're now talking like it can do that for me. Yeah. I love it and it's it's so it's so true. You know, it's like people can like look at magic and be like well, it's just X Y Z or it's like the human body like really all it does is it like sucks in O2 and like expel CO2. Like that's not a big deal. And it's like no, that's amazing. Freaking you try to synthesize a living organism that breathes spontaneously, you know, that generates energy from the atmosphere and like turns it into you know, a beating heart. Like what? Yeah. And this feels like you know, we haven't quite learned how to synthesize actual life. Right. But like wow, somehow we've managed to kind of synthesize a very important and very, you know, hard to simulate process Yeah. of life. Yeah, totally. Um and what the future holds. Yeah, and and I think like you're saying like um it is true that it's not really coming up with like totally new stuff. I mean it might be new to you, but like probably not new in terms of like the collective brain of humanity. Right. Um but like we said earlier this the answers you're looking for are often pretty simple. Um it's just like finding the answer is sometimes hard and then remembering it is is really hard. And that's what these tools are that's what these tools are are good for and that's that's really it it sounds like that's a lot of what what you're using it for and it's really really cool to see. Yeah. And and just I think the it to kind of come back to this notion of like an anthropomorphized other, you know, who's really ourself reflected. You know, there's therapy research that a lot of therapists don't attend to and may not actually love to hear about, which is like how much of the efficacy of therapy actually can be accounted for just by the patient. Mhm. It's like variability in treatment outcomes explained by you know, you plug in all these different variables to the specific treatment method, the therapist's orientation, the number of years of the therapist's experience, the you know, actually like socioeconomic like all these different things, the diagnosis. And of all those variables, the one that one of the variables that come like that swamps all the rest in terms of explanatory you know, statistical kind of variance is just who the patient is. Mhm. That's it. It's like this patient versus that patient versus the other patient. The patient is making their own therapy. Like do different patients experience me very differently? And I and I know because I can see how wow, I like that's a mode that I was in for this patient where I I'm way more talkative than with this other patient where I'm like Right. really reflective and thoughtful. You know, like the patients are shaping me. And now it's like we have that variable isolated, right? Like you design your therapist. You design it. You tell it how talkative or how you know, reflective to be. You tell it what orientation to adopt. But it's still like an interaction with a kind of with another you. And I think psychologically, you know, that gets us to like how does that interact with our attachment styles, with our sense of self, with our sense of a you know, belongingness versus isolation. Like Right. I I get unblocked from writing by just having ChatGPT ask me questions about the topic that I would like to write about. And it's wild what a different mode it puts me in. So I just really like I feel like I couldn't emphasize enough just the value of having a like an agent, right? Like or or a pseudo agent. It doesn't It turns out that it doesn't actually even have to be alive for us to be able to like externalize that part of ourselves and like relate to it in a new way. I love that. And you just you honestly just like psychology nerd sniped me because and I I wish I wish we had more time. But because one of the things you said that I think you made a lot of points in there that I think are are really interesting. But one of the things you said that makes me really curious is that the the main variable in treatment outcomes for therapy is like who the patient is. And my like the soundbite that I know is that the main outcome is like the therapeutic alliance or the main thing that affects the outcome is therapeutic alliance. Is that the same thing or is it different and how are they related in your mind? So it's a different and the one you always hear about the one that's gotten the most press so to speak both within the field and outside the field is the alliance. Like when we think common factors of therapy that you know seem to cut across orientations, the alliance is the first thing that comes to mind. But this is actually a separate variable that is separately entered into the regression equation. Just just like who is the patient? There's also a separate variable which is who is the therapist. And that also turns out to explain a great deal of variance. So in addition to like how warm and trusting is the working relationship between you which is crucial, there's also just like how is each individual person contributing across different dyads? Meaning like you might have different relationships with these different five patients, but or as the patient, you know, you've seen five therapists and some of them you had better relationships with, some worse, but like you as the patient managed to get something out of every single therapist that another patient hasn't figured out how to get out of those same therapists. Does that make sense? So it's like it's a distinct variable. That's really interesting. It reminds me of um of I'm reading this book right now called I and Thou by Martin Buber. Do you know do you know him? I I've heard tell, but I haven't read it. Maybe should put it on my list. You should definitely put it on your list. It's like super hard to read. He's like really mystical and esoteric and like I I first was gifted it when I was at the end of high school and I picked it up and like looked at it and I was like this this is terrible. I can't read this. Um but somehow as I've gotten older and more woo-woo, I've been like, "Oh, this is great." But like I think one of the one of the underlying points that he's making, which I think is like really special and interesting and it it's exactly I think what you're saying if I'm interpreting you correctly is um the I that I am uh arises as I relate to someone else and that or something else. And so who you are changes in a lot of ways based on the relationship that's currently happening and the way that you're you're approaching that relationship. And so if you if you believe that that's true, then it would make a lot of sense that like like how you are in the therapy room is going to be different from patient to patient and there's not really like obviously there's some common things, but like um who you are and your effectiveness and all that kind of stuff is going to is going to change drastically in a way that like when you're talking about I don't know like the effectiveness of a knee surgeon, it might not be as as different for a knee surgeon what the knee is. It's like that's just it's a knee. not and hope not. Right? Like I hope it's not that different. Yeah, I mean so there's a Yeah, there's a lot in what you're saying that resonates in terms of and I you know, I've heard different variants of that idea that kind of the ways that I think there's a lot to it. The ways that we enter into different modes or there are kind of different versions of we sort of have different versions of ourselves depending on kind of what gets brought out in a given interaction or a given environment. And I think by default that's just definitely true. Cuz I think we start out compartmentalized. We we kind of get activated into different modes by different circumstances and with different people and, you know, these things don't get integrated by default. But I think a big goal of therapy, and I think a big goal of our own growth and, you know, psychological aspiration as individuals is to seek integration, right? It's I think a lot of what you and I will be helping people with in our course, right? Like learning about who you are, kind of clarifying, crystallizing, like what is actually important to you all things considered, and what are all these different parts including the neglected parts, and how do you want them to feature in the life that you're building, and how you spend your time, and what you prioritize, and what is non-negotiable, and what is more, you know, what can you be what can you trade off so that we can actually be the like overarching architects of ourselves and our life, which is not easy because we've got to be able to discover and consult with and ultimately put into dialogue and somehow, you know, like weave together all these different compartmentalized parts. And and I think having a chat GPT to talk to and to kind of like park some of those selves on and then dialogue with them so that we can understand them better as the I that is relating to the this version of me, right? It's such a tremendous tool for fostering that integration. I love that. That is beautiful. Um I think we should leave it there. And for anyone who's listening and and if you vibed with that, we're we're doing a course. It's called Maximize Your Mind with Chat GPT. The link is below. You should come hang out with us in the course and learn how to do that integration process that Gina was talking about. Um and uh and yeah, I would love to have you back. We should definitely do this again. Thank you Thank you much for for taking the time. This is This is an amazing conversation. It is always a pleasure, Dan. Yeah, to be continued, no doubt.