Live interview from PestWorld 2023 (Honolulu, HI, filmed October 18, 2023) featuring Mike Bullert, President of Big Time Pest Control, on the "Off the Record with Paul Giannamore" show. # Channel Presentation Observations: PestWorld 2023 Interview with Mike Bullert ## Observed Audience - **Pest control business owners and operators.** The interview addresses questions specific to running a pest control company: hiring, routing efficiency, branching, licensing, seasonality, and regulatory challenges. - Evidence: *"for folks out there that you know were like hey should I be Pest Control termite pest control is always the most stable side of the business"* - Evidence: *"for guys that are out there that are in the position that you were in 20 years ago... what sort of advice or suggestions would you give your younger version of yourself"* - **Aspiring and current technicians/employees within pest control**, given extended discussion of hiring practices, career paths, and interview culture. - Evidence: *"if you're interviewing me as a technician and I said hey Mike... why would I work for you guys over one of these bigger companies"* - **Trade show attendees / industry professionals.** The setting is PestWorld 2023, and the guest notes: *"that's why we come to pest world is to learn what else is out there."* ## Observed Scope of Content - **Long-form, conversational founder interviews** conducted live at industry events, covering business growth stories end-to-end. - Evidence: The transcript walks chronologically from career origin (*"I started as a start technician for Terminex"*) through business acquisition (*"I had the opportunity to buy a route and half company"*, 2007) to current operations at 50 employees. - **Business-management topics applied to pest control**: recruiting, culture fit, core values, process documentation, expansion strategy, and economics. - Evidence: *"it's all about the process... documenting that process replicating that process"* - **Regulatory and market commentary**, particularly California-specific pest control regulation. - Evidence: *"our Governor just this weekend signed a law to ban one of our last few rodenticides"* ## Observable Presentation Style - **Host-led Q&A format** with a friendly, informal tone; host opens conversationally. - Evidence: *"Mike welcome to fomic TV hey Paul great to see you bud"* — the host is addressed as "Paul," the channel apparently "fomic TV." - **Casual interludes** humanize the conversation. - Evidence: *"cheers Mike cheers I know we're coming from the West Coast so it's 5:00 somewhere right"* - **Direct, sometimes pointed questions** on business realities: lawsuits, taxes, hiring mistakes, competition. - Evidence: *"how does it feel as an American to Tender almost half of your income to the state and federal government"*; *"what are some of your biggest hiring mistakes"* ## Explicit Self-Description Evidence - **No explicit channel self-description appears in the transcript.** The channel name ("fomic TV") is mentioned only in the guest's greeting; there is no mission statement, subscriber pitch, or channel scope claim from the creator. - **Observable implication (not a stated claim):** The channel presents itself through demonstration as an industry-interview program covering pest control business leadership at trade events. ## Demonstrated Patterns (Distinct from Claims) - **Consistent guest-focused structure**: the host's own views stay minimal; guests carry the content with extended first-person narratives. - **Recurring themes demonstrated across the interview**: entrepreneurship, scaling small businesses, company culture, and workforce development — potential channel-level themes, though only this single video is available. - **Note:** These patterns are drawn from one video only and cannot alone establish channel-wide identity. # Delivery Observation: Mike Bullert — PestWorld 2023 Interview ## Overall Format This is a **conversational on-camera interview**, not a lecture. Mike Bullert responds to an interviewer's questions, so his delivery pattern is reactive and narrative rather than structured teaching. ## Tone - **Warm, casual, and self-deprecating.** He jokes about his own early resistance to formalizing culture: > "I'm like God we don't need that." - **Openly admits weakness**, framed as lessons: > "I think one of my weaknesses is I think other people think the way I do." - **Optimistic, forward-leaning framing** even when describing setbacks: > "it's going to be interesting... but create some opportunities for sure." ## Vocabulary & Recurring Phrases - **Repeated use of "you know"** as a connective filler — one of the most frequent verbal habits throughout the transcript. - **Repetition for emphasis** is a consistent habit: - > "grow grow grow" - > "that's okay that's what we want it's Controlled Chaos" - > "it's painful it's painful... it is painful to" - **"Right" as a check-in word**, seeking interviewer agreement: > "the key to Pest Control is efficiency right," > "people are important right." - **Business-operator vocabulary**: "process," "replicate," "culture fit," "core values," "trajectory," "onboarding," "10 years down the line." ## Teaching / Communication Habits - **Answers with anecdotes, not abstractions.** When asked about recruiting, he gives a concrete scene: > "you're at a fast food restaurant someone gives you amazing service... that person needs to work for us." - **Uses memorable labels/mottos** for concepts: "Controlled Chaos," "trust but verify," "creating our own swarm season." - **Sports analogies** to explain teamwork: > "it's like a sports team... it takes everybody from the water boy to the trainer taping up the ankles." - **Builds points through contrast**: > "we're not selling the application of materials we're we're selling expertise." - **Deflects with humor when caught off guard**, e.g., on "crazy things": > "maybe we need to get Becky up here for that one." - **Withholds selectively, playfully**: > "well I can't tell you all my secrets." ## Structure of Answers - Frequently **opens by validating the question**: > "great question," > "yeah great question" (appears at least twice). - Tends to **circle back and restate his conclusion** at the end of long answers, e.g., ending the pandemic story with growth outcomes: > "2021 was a phenomenal year 2022 was a phenomenal year." ## Patterns vs. Isolated Moments - **Stable patterns** (well-supported by repetition): "you know" filler, validating questions, anecdote-driven answers, repetition for emphasis, process/growth vocabulary. - **Isolated moments** (insufficient repetition to call a pattern): the zombie/superpower interview story, the "$4 million lawsuit" anecdote, the sports-team analogy — each appears once and cannot be generalized. ## Uncertainty Note Delivery cues like pace, pauses, and gesture are **not observable from the transcript alone**; observations here are limited to word choice, phrasing, and answer structure. # Observation Document: Mike Bullert (Big Time Pest Control) — PestWorld 2023 Interview ## Participants - **Mike Bullert** — President, Big Time Pest Control (Northern California), interviewee - **Paul** — Host, Forge/“fomic TV” (interviewer) ## Business Background - Entered pest control after earning a **biology degree with a chemistry minor**; originally considered pre-med or wildlife biology. - Started as a service technician at **Terminix**, moved into sales and management; spent **9 years** there across **7 operations**, relocating his family **6 times**. - In **2007**, bought a struggling route-and-a-half company near his hometown (2 hours north of Sacramento). Business grew to **~50 employees**. - Service mix: **65% traditional pest control**, ~35% termite, repairs, and early-stage wildlife work. - Coverage area: Sacramento to South Lake Tahoe up to the Oregon border, all from **one service center**, with a branch expansion plan underway. ## California Regulatory Environment - Claims the Governor "just this weekend signed a law to ban one of our last few rodenticides," following elimination of most rodenticides about two years earlier. - Frames regulation as "like trying to build a house without a hammer." - **Dual position**: regulation creates hardship but also opportunity — fewer tools mean consumers must hire professionals; "it's our minds that matter... we're selling expertise," not material application. - Predicts the worst harm falls on **low-income communities** who can't afford costly alternatives like $4,000 exclusions: "taking those tools away is... not the way to do it." - On taxes: paying ~half of income to government is "painful"; he believes money is mostly "tied up in administration and bureaucracy," though acknowledges "we need our roads." - Licensing friction: historically ~50% fail rate on the state exam, ~30-day retest waits, FBI fingerprinting/background checks that can delay or block licensing by months. - Notes one counterpoint: consumer-market product removals sometimes give professionals exclusive access to those products. ## Competition & Differentiation - Competitors include nationals (**Orkin, Terminix, Clark**) and strong family-owned locals. - Differentiation: **full-service solutions** — e.g., for rodents in attics, offering insulation removal, sanitation, exclusion, and re-insulation rather than "a little Band-Aid." - Recruitment pitch vs. nationals: faster **advancement opportunity** due to rapid growth; "Controlled Chaos"; leadership paths where "everyone in this room has started at an entry level position." ## Hiring & Culture - **Always recruiting** regardless of open roles — looking for culture fits, not just role fillers; managers carry **recruitment cards** to approach people showing exceptional service (e.g., fast-food workers). - Does **not** prioritize hiring licensed industry veterans; develops talent, including high school athletes and connections from coaching wrestling. - **Culture-fit interviewing**: playful questions (superpower, "should zombies be fast or slow") to see the real person in an intimidating entry-level process. - **Core values were defined as a group process**, prompted by his daughter (a manager) — he initially resisted ("we don't need that") but concluded "how can I communicate what I want if it's not written down." - Culture adapts over time — e.g., relaxing clean-shaven grooming rules to widen the applicant pool. - **Promotion-from-within preference**, but not absolute: hired an external branch leader with skills he lacks; "if we don't have someone to promote within then we're failing somewhere." - Quarterly management "deep dives" identify promotable staff via stretch challenges (e.g., running a training meeting). - **Hiring mistake pattern**: assuming others think like he does; overcorrecting by hiring the "opposite" of a previous failure when the failed employee was "probably doing 90% of it right"; now vets management hires more thoroughly. - **Onboarding**: new technicians in the field day one after lunch; deliberately challenging first seven days — "if you quit the first week, man, you saved me a lot of money of training." ## COVID-19 Period - Feared being deemed non-essential; kept **all employees on board** rather than laying off 25–30%, betting rebuilding would be harder than retaining. - Expensive initially (high advertising spend, falling revenue), but retention was strong; second half of 2020, 2021, and 2022 were "phenomenal" years. - Lost some good employees during the "great resignation" to those staying home on government programs, but persevered. ## 2023 Market Conditions - **Q1**: unprecedented snowfall and record rainfall limited termite workdays; office shut down repeatedly; general pest control still grew. - **Q2**: rising interest rates "essentially stopped" California real estate; ~20% of business tied to real estate (inspections, treatments, repairs) was hit. - **Q3–Q4**: termite demand rebounding — homeowners unable to move are investing in protecting their current homes. - Outlook for 2024: "great," with investment in the new branch model and entry into bigger markets. ## Winter Seasonality Strategy - Monthly billing decouples payment from service cadence. - Winter used for **training** and **complimentary inspections** that generate leads — "creating our own swarm season." ## Managerial Lessons & Advice - **Process over trust**: "once you got three employees, trust but verify"; manage against documented processes above ~10 employees. - Past mistakes: opened branches **twice too early** without capital to sustain them; retracted geography, refined processes, and is now re-expanding. - **Daily documentation** (electronic + handwritten summaries) lets him diagnose performance "like looking at someone's financials." - Goal-setting conversations tie daily activity to employees' personal financial/career goals. - Think **10 years ahead**; evaluate decisions by whether they advance the 10-year goal; accept that the mindset that built a 3-person company won't scale to 50–100. - Field technicians are supported by an "office team, sales team, management team" behind them — sports-team analogy. ## Unresolved Tensions (as expressed) - Regulation simultaneously **hurts** (tool loss, licensing friction, harm to low-income customers) and **helps** (professional-only products, forced expertise-driven demand). - Strong service ethos ("I'm going to go help that person... two hours away") conflicts with routing efficiency — his wife Becky challenges these decisions. - He enjoys field work but acknowledges he "can't do that every day" and mostly works on strategy, development, and meetings. # Speaker Attribution & Provenance Record ## Video Identification - **Title:** Big Time Pest Control President, Mike Bullert, Live from PestWorld 2023 - **Video ID:** 01a168c8-a689-74ea-9b71-2b9fd9123009 - **Context:** Interview conducted at PestWorld 2023 (industry trade event), referenced throughout the transcript. ## Speakers & Roles ### Primary Speaker 1 — Mike Bullert - **Role:** Guest / interviewee; identified in the video title as **President of Big Time Pest Control**. - **Provenance facts stated by speaker:** - Operates in Northern California (Redding area, ~2 hours north of Sacramento); service territory from Sacramento/South Lake Tahoe to the Oregon border. - Background: degree in biology, minor in chemistry; started as a start technician for **Terminix**, then sales and management; 9 years with the company, six family relocations. - Purchased a route-based pest control company in **2007**; now ~50 employees; ~65% general pest control, ~35% termite, repairs, some wildlife. - Active in the **National Association (NPMA)** — referenced legislative days in Washington, DC. ### Primary Speaker 2 — Paul (Interviewer) - **Role:** Host / interviewer; identified by name in the opening exchange ("welcome to fomic TV hey Paul"). The show/platform name is transcribed as "fomic TV" (transcription fidelity uncertain — possibly "Forbes"/"Formic"/other). - Function: asks questions, guides topics, no substantive claims of his own. ### Referenced Third Parties (non-speaking) - **Becky** — Mike's wife, mentioned as co-parent and business confidant; also suggested as potential interviewee. - **Becky's daughter reference ambiguity:** Mike's **daughter** (unnamed) is a company manager who prompted the creation of core values/mission statement. - **Cil / "s Cil"** (transcription uncertain) — office manager credited with building processes. - Competitors named: **Orkin, Terminix, Clark** (national/regional), plus unnamed family-owned local businesses. - Employers referenced: a newly hired **branch manager** with prior management background; a **director of HR**. ## Referenced Sources & Claims (Provenance) - **California rodenticide law:** Mike claims the Governor "just this weekend" signed a law banning one of the last few remaining rodenticides, following elimination of most ~2 years prior. *(Third-party legislative claim; source is speaker's statement only.)* - **Licensing statistics:** California license exam fail rate historically ~50%; ~30-day retest wait; FBI/DOJ fingerprint background checks required for applicators/field reps. *(Speaker's claims, unverified.)* - **Lawsuit anecdote:** $4 million lawsuit claim over an alleged missed termite inspection item; speaker states the accusation was unfounded. - **COVID-era business performance:** claims of strong growth in 2020 (second half), 2021, 2022; retention decisions during shutdown uncertainty. - **2023 market conditions:** claims of unprecedented Q1 snowfall/rainfall, interest rates halting California real estate (~20% of business tied to real estate). ## Promotional Segments - **No explicit promotional/advertising segments** or sponsor mentions identified in the transcript. The interview itself functions as a feature on the guest's company (Big Time Pest Control), including discussion of its differentiation, hiring pitch, and expansion plans — promotional in tone but not flagged as a distinct ad segment. ## Comment Availability - **Not indicated** — no metadata supplied regarding comment availability. ## Uncertainty Notes - Interviewer's show name ("fomic TV") is garbled in transcription. - Office manager's name ("s Cil") is transcription-uncertain. - No curated metadata was provided; all provenance facts derive from the transcript itself. Mike welcome to fomic TV hey Paul great to see you bud good to see you so you're operating in the crazy State of California how's that I am it's it's very interesting and has its challenges for sure you know it's like trying to build a house without a hammer right to keep taking our tools away our uh Governor just this weekend signed a signed a law to ban one of our last few rodenticides that are left after after eliminating the majority of them about two years ago so is that good for you or bad you know it'll be interesting because we you know rodents are a big big issue and in California as they are across the country but uh we have less and less tools so you know in some ways though you still got to hire professional to do that work so you know it requires a more intelligent technician more advanced technology that we bring in so it's going to be interesting it's going to be interesting but create some opportunities for sure so Mike you're you're super active in the National Association but how did you get into the space to begin with well yeah when I went to college I was at uh kind of looking at doing like premat or wildlife biology something like that I have a degree in biology minor in chemistry and when I graduated college uh we had Becky and I had just had our first uh baby uh and kind of looking for something to do we had a friend that was in pest control and says Hey try this it's kind of a part-time job where you find your real occupation I don't think anyone says Hey I want to be a bug guy it's never been F ever so I started as a start technician for Terminex you know a large uh National company and and uh did that then went into sales went into management and I was with them for nine years and during that time we were in seven different operations we literally moved our family six times in nine years God so when did you get into your own business well interestingly enough that last move uh was back to the place where we started where I was born and raised and which is Northern California Northern California north of Sacramento and and reading and uh it was interesting it was like you know the branch was having some issues so I was like kind of the fix it guy went in there fix it got everything going after a year they're like hey you know you're going to be on to Dallas or LA or somewhere else and it's like I don't know if I want to do that again yep you know so I had the opportunity to buy a route and half company that was kind of struggling with their growth and put my tools to use as running a business and uh developing people and you know we started the route in half now we have 50 employees what year was that when you bought that 2007 okay and and what sort of business was that was that a residential general pest yeah at the time it was only residential general pest okay and so we developed our commercial side develop our termite side um over time we've added fumigation repairs Wildlife you know our customers kept asking for their services you know so really wanted to have a kind of a clean Pest Control basis uh but our customers kept asking for more so kept getting drawn into that so I mean how much of your business now is traditional Pest Control versus those anur Services yeah 65% is true pest control and the other 35% is termite uh repairs is a little bit Wildlife we're kind of just getting into and how far north of Sacramento are you guys you're pretty far nor about I live 2 hours north of Sacramento but we have customers Sacramento South into South Lake Tahoe all the way up to the Oregon border so your cover a wide swath yeah but is it complicated when you're attempting to grow a route based service business when you cover that sort of geography yeah well the key to the key to Pest Control is efficiency right servicing as many customers you can in a day and getting that routing down to the smallest area possible so when you get somebody that calls you and they're they're two hours away um what do you do do you take on that customer and build a route or do you say hey I don't want that business and it's always been kind of a tough thing because you know if you're in this industry you you have a service heart you want to help people that's what we do is we fix problems right help people who need you and so you know my weakness is I'm going to go help that person you know the little lady with bed bugs that's two hours away okay just this one time and then Bey says my wife she says what are you doing how are we going to service that customer you know so are you doing this all out of one service center yeah we have one service center right now and what we're doing is we're actively building our Branch plan so uh We've hired a branch manager that's going to open an operation that's away from us and we have some other satellite offices that we're going to grow those into having operations centered there but right now it's everything is housed in one building what's the competitive landscape like up in that area for you guys yeah we have some national competitors Orin Terminex Clark uh as well as some great uh family-owned businesses that are in that area so it's we are competitive and there's there's definitely some folks that keep us you know on the top of our game and you know that's why we come to pest world is to learn what else is out there and and what is that competitive advantage that we can offer what can we do differently than our competitor whether it's a local competitor a national competitor and what is it what are some of those points of differentiation yeah well I would say the the different Services we offer y right you you call us and you say hi I have a rodent problem I hear a scratch in the Attic you know you might call one company and they say hey I'm going to set a trap or I'm going to put a bait box out we can do that but we can also come in and remove the insulation in your attic sanitize do the exclusion plug the holes put new insulation in and kind of offer a more robust program and truly solve their problem instead of kind of just a little Band-Aid here what do you you know what is the future hold for you guys in that area when you think about over the next 5 years what's your goals of that business our goals are I've always been aggressive about growth right that's kind of like through you know the center of what we want to do is grow grow grow and if it's you know double digit every year is our goal and so we're at the phase where we need to expand our geography so we're taking the processes that we've done really well with and we're going to replicate that in other areas and so part of that is with our with our team our management team you know uh our office manager in particular s Cil she does a great job of taking my crazy ideas putting it on paper help build a process that we can then plug that in somewhere else and the more we can replicate what we do well uh in a different area that's that's what our future is you know over the I guess last what 17 years as you've been growing this I mean what are some of the more crazy things that have happened in the life of a business owner well there's crazy things every day right there's challenges what are what are some of the most crazy the most crazy oh gosh well huh maybe we need to get Becky up here for that one yeah she may have to tell well you know maybe you know uh some of the legal stuff you know things you don't anticipate right where I was before working for a large company you know if something got out of hand you make a phone call you know you phone a friend and that's HR or legal counsil something like that but now as the as the owner of a company and somebody calls and says hey we're going to sue you for $4 million because you missed something on a termite report you know we charge $95 to do a termite report and they say we missed something which we didn't but they're accusing you of it and you have to defend that and talk about tying up your time and resources where all we want to do is grow and help people and you know dealing with frivolous lawsuits or HR issues um you know one thing is I think a challenge for a lot of companies is hiring people yeah but we've done a very good job of having a great onboarding process recruiting people and being involved in our communi people want to work for us so that's what thank you thank you that's one of those challenges that you you know you see that challenge every day but you have to step up to it and find a way around that and I I think we've been successful with that getting people on board you know having our culture in and such that it attracts people to our company and wants them to stay you know that's kind of been the some of the crazy stuff we've been doing cheers Mike cheers I know we're coming from the West Coast so it's 5:00 somewhere right mhm indeed so what you know you mentioned your onboarding process what's special about it well I can't tell you all my secrets but tell me some I'll tell you some of the secrets some of the secrets just we're always looking right um we don't view our staffing as like okay who do we need right we're looking for the people that that meet our company's culture and if you can meet our culture we'll find a spot for you we'll make a spot for that's kind of what draws us into these these areas and and helps us grow and you know we have that longterm vision of where we want to be and if I can get the right people on board we'll find a spot for them and and we don't say hey we're down a technician hire a technician no we're looking for good people all the time and we're always looking for technician we're always looking for leaders we're looking for people who don't just fill that role today but is that someone who can grow with the company and and be a leader within our organization um so you know we're always looking for good folks um and how do you do that though is that it it I mean are you just putting job ads up or is this a more active process where you've got are are you having your team members go out and find candidates how how are you doing that you know I think some people will hire from within the industry you know find someone that works that already has a a license or something like that we that's what we do not do you know we'll be out and about you're at a fast food restaurant someone gives you amazing service this is a minimum a minimum wage employee who's going above and beyond within what they do that person needs to work for us right so our managers have recruitment cards and says hey thank you for doing a great job you know let's talk yep um and how effective is that it is effective and you know we want people to come on board that can grow with the company and so if we're doing things like reaching out to um High School kids you know and helping them develop you know as our kids were growing up and going through Sports and things like that you know we have folks that you know you recognize the kid who has potential to to thrive in a business like ours and you know make those connections you know I've coached uh wrestling and other other sports and you know making those connections with those folks and saying hey you can come work for us you know you could do these other things you know you see all these fancy companies IBM or apple or whatever and everyone wants to work for them but who are they H they're hiring you know they're not they're only hiring so many people so there's a lot of jobs in Pest Control there's a lot of opportunity for growth and then telling that story of how our company's done that and what our vision is going forward you know to grow that company so as we say Hey you know our goal is to double every five six years and so you look around this table you know when we're interviewing somebody everyone in here is there going to be two of them we're going to have two service managers two sales managers two HR managers so if you see yourself growing with a company and maybe taking one of those roles in the future you know we paint that picture to an applicant that you're not just taking that job today you're looking at a future a career do you guys ever are you always promoting management from within or do you ever hire management we've done both and you know if we don't have someone to promote within then we're failing somewhere right so we need to find people who are promotable we bring them on board and help velop that talent but as we're growing and and we're growing rapidly you've got to pull talent in right so we just hired somebody who's going to help lead one of our offices and has background in management and skills that that I don't have and that's okay you know to realize you know I need to surround myself with good people and that's that person might be better than me and maybe they're going to learn some things from me and I'm going to learn some things from them and that's all right how do you identify like within the ranks of the technician who's promotable for example what's that process like great question our our management team meets well we meet weekly but we we do a deep dive once a quarter and one thing we always talk about is who's promotable on your team and our management team has to be humble and and the in the aspect that they understand that they might be promoting someone that's in the future their boss and that's okay because as we as we get better you know it doesn't matter if someone passes you on the ladder we're all improving and so we're we're actively looking for who's on our team that can take on a bigger role and so we're identifying that we're giving them challenges you know we're challenge him with responsibilities you know hey run a training meeting do these things that might kind of be something that's not normal for a technician to do or not normal for a salesperson to do and you see them take that challenge and Thrive that's someone who who's promotable you know if you were interviewing me as a technician and I said hey Mike you know you're an option so is orc and so Jo Terminex why would I work for you guys over one one of these bigger companies what would you tell me Well opportunities number one right we're growing you know nothing wrong with those companies they have a lot of great things going for them but I would say the the advancement opportunity our companies more cuz we're growing more rapidly we're developing you know we're opening new offices we're looking for ways to improve constantly and you know there's challenges with that as we're looking for ways to to get better you know maybe there's a little bit of turmoil in the metime a little bit of chaos that occurs that's okay that's what we want it's Controlled Chaos that's where the opportunity comes from and so if you hang with me and you spend two three years as a technician learn the business now I can put you in a role of leadership and are you going to have that opportunity with XYZ company M you know where where you can see that you can look around the room and everyone in this room has started at a at a entry level position and worked their way up so that opportunity is real and we paint that picture we tell that story and I think a lot of people that's what they want to see is what's my trajectory what's my career path so that's that's how we try to differentiate ourselves now having a team of 50 how active are you in interview process with for example new technicians is that something you do is that your management team you I don't I don't uh our management team does um you know and and we rely on our director of HR and our management team and you know it's maybe something different that we do when we talk about this a lot is how we interview you know number one we're interviewing for a culture fit right so we ask all kinds of silly questions you know like if you had a if you could have any superpower what would it be and then a followup question like you know should zombies be fast or slow and normally that will tie into to their superpower right if they can fly then you know the zombies can be fast and it's okay but that loosens them up you know we came up here and we talked some small talk before we got going and that's what we want to do is just kind of see who's behind the scenes who who's inside there um are they going to be a good fit because an interview process for an entry level position is very intimidating right so how do we really find out what this person is going to be like after they've been here a year or two years you know so we do that a little bit differently we're looking for the culture fit then you know hey can you drive a car and all these these things that maybe at the end of the day aren't as important as just driving with what what we're trying to accomplish as a team you know when I think about culture fit that's an extremely important part of the recruiting and hiring process I mean have have you and the team spent time defining the attributes of your culture so that you can compare a candidate I mean how do you do that how do you determine a culture fit well we kind of we did that we sat down and we said you know where are we where do we want to go what do we want to do differently right what are we doing well today and how do we have to change and over time I mean it seems like you know day difference in 5 years from a culture standpoint something like our beards you know 3 years ago absolutely clean shaven every day sure tucked in you know kind of stuff and kind of having to meet the meet the the times so we can have more people into our applicant pool um but that's just being kind of a better fit of what our community and our society is today so we're we're constantly changing our culture and and we have these foundational beliefs but then you know what do we need to do differently so we're we're definitely looking at our culture and and and making sure that we're communicating that so we put together our core values here a couple years ago you know a lot of people are focused on mission statements these kind of things and I've never never really done that you know it's all up here in my head and I I know what I want but as our company grows I have to be able to have our managers be able to carry that vision and carry that mission statement forward and so you know we've defined that you know what are what are our core values and what does that mean and and we hire someone do they meet those core values was that a group process that you guys all got together and said let's define our core values absolutely and you know my daughter who's always been part of the business you know and she's one of our managers now and we brought her the management team she says hey how come we don't have core values and a mission statement and all these things I'm like God we don't need that you know and and she really you know forced us to do that and it's like you know what after doing it it makes a lot of sense because how can I communicate what I want if it's not written down if it's not something that can be replic at yeah I guess if you don't Define it yourself it'll become defined over time that's right inadvertently yeah you have a culture whether or not you're going to State it you're going to drive it or not right yeah so you know often times I think some of the biggest lessons are mistakes so what are some of the hiring Mist you know you've been out this decades what are some of your biggest hiring mistakes and how did they happen well I I think one of my weaknesses is I think other people think the way I do right and and maybe they maybe they say something uh that really Sparks your interest and you you're drawn into that and and maybe somebody in that role previously failed well I'm looking for the opposite of that and the reality is you know that person that you had that failed probably was doing 90% of it right but there was something intrinsic in their character that caused them to fail in a in a big way and you know we've seen that and we try to identify what those issues are and kind of you know if you will kind of patch that up in our hiring process how are we going to hire differently how are we going to find those things and really take time especially for hiring management level folks you know vetting their references vetting their background these kinds of things and really making sure they're going to be a good fit you know over the last few years we've obviously had a really difficult time recruiting right and of course with Co you got a boom to the pest control industry so there's been a lot of throwing bodies at work right and so how did you deal with with the whole Co era and actually getting production done great question you know Co was interesting because you know we were actually back in DC and for legislative days for mpma and it all happened while we were there on the flight back everyone's wearing masks it's like what's going on and and you know we're hearing that the government's going to shut down and we really didn't know when or what that was going to look like in California and essentially we just we kind of a little bit knew was going to happen so we weren't sure if Pest Control was going to be you know defined in as essential industry or not so we we're kind of trying to preempt that as like hey everyone don't just stay home PR prepared to work come to work and for about 6 to8 weeks our employees were so thankful to have a job and our retention was just amazing and people would just said man we just love what we do we love the company and it was like you know what you know we we were sitting around the table before Co happened thinking hey we're going to have to lay off 25 30% of people just to sustain you know because you know all these interior stuff or inspection side of our business that's going to go away tomorrow so how are we going to persevere we're just going to have to do our exterior Pest Control service doesn't find a way through it and you know we we made the decision of let's just keep everyone on board let's sweep floors whatever we have to do because it's going to be more difficult to rebuild afterwards and high new people so we kept everyone on board and that was expensive right we had put a tremendous amount of money into advertising and our expenses were a lot higher than they were the year before but our Revenue was taking a downturn but we just kept everyone on board and all of a sudden as we kind of got to settle into Co and and and our area yes it was scary everyone was scared but we just kept growing and then the the boom of people calling because they're staying at home and they're seeing the pests and you know our our Pest Control side grew tremendously our termite side grew tremendously that year and it would turned out to be a you know the second half of 2020 was a great year 2021 was a phenomenal year 2022 was a phenomenal year and it I think a lot of that had to do with keeping our employees early in Co and you had during that time the great resignation a lot of people that kind of relied on uh government programs and decided to stay at home and we experienced a lot of challenges with that lost lost some good employees who just decided to stay home but we persevered and there was a lot of people who did want to work we just had to dig deeper to find them so Co initially was kind of a tough thing but uh you know we we continue to do well as a company the um the demand now in the market you talked about 2021 2022 being extremely busy where's demand customer demand now in 2023 you know it's interesting in Northern California in uh 2023 the first quarter we had unprecedented snowfall I me we used to get a little bit of snow you know nothing but I mean literally having the office shut down for 3 days open back up office shut down for three more days and the first quarter was tough and an un record rainfall so the amount of days that we could work on our termite side was limited our inspections were limited our Pest Control continued to grow and a lot of that was attributed to the growth we had the prior year the new customer base those customers still wanted us the the pest activity was still good so but termite was slow and then we roll into the second quarter of the Year interest rates going up essentially stopped the real estate market in California no one's buying nothing because the the effective cost of buying a new home was Double Y you know the interest rate changes so our real estate stopped uh which is about 20% of our business is tied into real estate whether it's inspections or treatments repairs and um but Pest Control has continued to be strong continue to grow through that and so you know for folks out there that you know were like hey should I be Pest Control termite pest control is always the most stable side of the business and really holds things going and uh you know it's kept us going good now the third quarter and looking in the fourth quarter quarter uh termite services are coming out strong you know people realizing you know okay I want a better place but I'm not going to move I can't afford to I'm this is my home and regardless of what you hear on the news all the horrible things that are going on I got to protect my home I'm not going to let the roof leak y I'm not going to let termites eat the home from the ground up so I got to do something to protect this is this is the home where I'm going to live I got to protect it so third quarter has been great for termite services and I think the fourth quarter is going to be great what's your outlook for next year I think it's going to be great yeah you know um like I say I think we're going to settle in you know with all the craziness in the world and our Pest Control s is going be great we're investing a lot right now into our new Branch model and going into some bigger markets and that's going to be an opportunity for our business to grow and to put the things that we've done and we know work very well where we are and Implement that into new markets and and we we've kind of just stayed kind of close to home until now so really going in with both feet into a new market and you know and seeing what happens now you've got 50 plus team members I mean how how has your life changed in recent years on a day-to-day basis with your actual job I what do you spend your time doing now well I spend my time overseeing the different aspects or or working on Innovation but and spending time with my team my management team developing them them you know and it seems like you know I'm always in meetings it seems very boring right what I really love to do is get out in the field but I know I can't do that every day I need to rely on my team help develop them and work on strategic initiatives like our Branch model you know what's new and exciting out there with software and Innovations new products um and networking with my peers you know when you talk about getting out in the field what does that mean to you does that mean actually servicing a customer or does that mean talking to a customer working yeah talking to customers you know if we have a new customer that's maybe having challenges or a very large customer meeting with them face to face and helping them through that process of of coming on board um or if we have a customer that's having a challenge you know someone that's upset about something you know I can go out there and help with that um you know we do a a wide range of different customers from residential homes to schools and municipalities food processing and everything in between so some of those bigger customers require a little bit more technical knowledge or just need to know that you're there and that you care um you know so spend a lot of time doing those kinds of things what's some of your bigger managerial mistakes over the years should have had more time to to write these down I've made a lot of mistakes I me sometimes there's so many of them you're like where do I choose from right yeah you know um yeah that's a tough one and I know I've lot of made made a lot of mistakes and you know I think that if you're not making mistakes you're not you're not trying you're not pushing you know you can't be so conservative that you're not willing to go outside the box and try different things but you know certainly we do that um you know early on in the business we twice in the business we opened up branches but it was too soon we didn't have the capital to back it and so essentially we opened up an office and it did good for a while until it didn't but we didn't have the resource to fix those problems or to help those folks go and and take that next step so that's kind of why we've retracted the business back into a smaller geography and now we're we're expanding again now that we've defined our processes made it in such a way that we can replicate that what is it about Northern California that's kept you there yeah you know I I love it there that's where I'm born and raised uh Northern California um and that's my Comfort area you know and and we've looked at you know Oregon and and Nevada which are nearby and sure nice here in Hawaii lots of Critters here um but northern California is kind of where I'm from and that's my comfort zone and yeah but you know when I was with uh you know another company you know I was in six different operations and so I was in the Bay Area I was in Sacramento and all through Northern California and and so I kind of understand those are there's different challenges in those are is but there's a lot lot of opportunity and I I realize northern and southern California are extremely distinct not only from a cultural perspective but also geographical perspective you ever thought about opening an operations in SoCal sure but not yet you know and I think once we figure out uh you know how to make this you know remote operations work well I think that's definitely a possibility I mean would it would it make more sense to go to Oregon or Southern California because Oregon You could argue is more similar to where you're at now no well I can be in in a new market in Oregon in 2 and a half hours you know a pretty vast Market there you know Southern California makes a lot of sense uh the nice thing about Southern California is it's all the same regulatory environment you know same licensing structure and we've we've mastered that right we've mastered getting somebody on board getting them licensed getting them trained um just really Define that process so the California model works really well for us and being able to replicate that that makes sense you know uh going into a different state maybe not that difficult because those other states have a lot easier regulatory envir it's different though right so there's still a little bit of a learning curve there but from a you know geographical support standpoint um makes a lot of sense because you know two three hours away you're in you're in another state how does it feel as an American to Tender almost half of your income to the state and federal government that's painful it's painful you know um it is painful to yeah every dollar that you make half of it goes to the government and are are they spending it wisely no they're not you know no they're not right you know and yeah we need our roads it'd be nice if they didn't have potholes everywhere you know and these kinds of things you see that the government is doing some good with our money but for the most part appears to be tied up in administration and bureaucracy and not really going to work so yeah it would be nice to have a a Nevada based Corporation yeah but um yeah we don't have any plans for that right now so uh but yeah the the the tax environment certainly yeah something we think about you know the does the regulatory environment help the business person you know I often think about the fact that the regular regime is a they're pain the the structural passest control board there but that restricts Supply and so isn't that helpful to guys like you in certain ways yeah it can be as we see some products come off of the consumer Market you know they're not on the shelves with the hardware score yeah now we can use those products um but certainly as different tools disappear it's it's our minds that matter it's our training our expertise that's what we're selling we're not selling the application of materials we're we're selling expertise so certainly see there's some opportunities with that uh um it makes our job really tough it does and what's sad is the folks who are going to be hurt the worst are those low-income communities those low-income housing folks that can't afford a $4,000 exclusion right if if someone's got rodents and they can afford the exclusion afford those those you know weekly Services instead of a quarterly service yeah they're still going to have rent control y but those folks that can't afford that you know it's taking it out of their hands now they're living in unsanitary conditions which is really not really not what we want in our society not what we want for our our neighbors you know regardless of what you believe politically you know we all have a heart to help our neighbors and and taking those tools away is you know it's not the way to do it how difficult is it to license technicians in California now it's tough at one time the past rate or the fail rate was 50% so everyone that goes to take the test in California for their initial license half of them are going to fail yeah and then when that happens it takes you almost 30 days to go test again so it's just cumbersome we don't need that there's no benefit to society to make us wait to take a test so it is tough to get a license you know our Pass rates like 90% And but we really focus on having our folks train and study and plan for the test and you know we put a lot of time into that but getting folks to pass a test and get license is difficult and on top of that is background checks FBI fingerprinting um so not everybody's perfect and we know that job pool is getting smaller and smaller and there's a big push especially in California for rehabilitated folks to get them into the into the job pool but I got an entrylevel job but you can't work here because you might have something in your in your history right um so that's tough it's tough to get people on board when you talk about FBI fingerprinting in California you have to be finger print to be an applicator or a field rep in California you have to get fingerprints and it goes to the FBA FBI database and Department of Justice and if there's anything pops up they have to investigate it and if maybe it's something minor it's still going to be a delay might be 3 months might be 6 months um or it might eliminate them from being licensed so you've put six months of training into somebody and now you find out they can't get a license is that the point in time when you're typically trying to get them license is 6 months into it now normally I can get someone licensed in about 2 months if everything goes good they pass a test the first time clean background um everything goes good but you're all wait you're waiting on the state to respond to you right it's like going to the Department of Motor Vehicles and you know nothing happens fast there right so getting a licensing is not a fast process so we're in the middle of October now Winter's upon us what do you do with your staff in the winter there great question you don't have the same seasonality the rest of us do but but it's clearly more so than la la yeah yeah you know we we've we've changed our pest control program so we're doing monthly billing regardless of whether they're doing it every other month or quarterly service I think that's helped because folks don't necessarily tie in the service delivery to the payment you know that's been a big help but our goal is to keep everybody on board so we're doing a lot of training in the winter time we're doing a lot of uh complimentary inspections for our current customers to generate leads so we might be doing an inspection on a home and find a rodent problem find a termite problem and kind of creating our own seasonality we're creating our own season our own swarm season um by just getting in front of our customers you know you've grown a business from one route to 50 plus people on the team you know for guys that are out there that are in the position that you were in 20 years ago I what's the best advice you can give them to help them learn you know what sort of advice or suggestions would you give your younger version of yourself yeah great question it's all about the process so what a lot of people think I mean people are important right and hey I trust my guy okay once you got three employees trust but verify it's got to be written down it's got to be a process and once you get over 10 employees now I'm not touching every employee every day right so I have to have a process where I manager so it's all about documenting that process replicating that process and re managing based on on did you follow the process not so much do I trust you as a human yes I trust you but we're going to follow the process that's how we do it and so many small operators I talked to that's their biggest challenge is getting past that personal relationship and verifying it you know working on accountability of productivity those are the things that are going to get you above and beyond and don't be afraid to have big goals don't be afraid to think big because if you're not thinking 10 years down the line where you want to be you'll never get there you know we're always thinking 10 years down the line and what does that look like how do we get there now every day you're you're faced with challenges and opportunities and do you take that opportunity okay it's a cost today it's a new software new advertising whatever that is is that helping you reach your 10year goal okay then it's the right decision hiring that person that you know what maybe cost a little bit more than you want to pay but they're going to help you get further down the road that's where you have to get outside of your comfort zone and and you can't use the same mindset the same tools that got you to have your own company with one employee or three employees or 10 employees that mindset will not get you to 30 and 50 employees or 100 employees you you can't do it that way you have to constantly reinvent and redefine and and whatever uh personal thoughts I have or I use to get here those tools aren't going to work so I got to break down that wall and and change my mindset on an ongoing basis can you give me one example example when you talk about the process and the team member has to follow the process give me one example of a specific process yeah um you mean like a treatment service protocol do you mean like well it's service protocols absolutely and training we can talk all day about training but documenting something as simple as what did you do yesterday right uh we document that electronically and then we do a handwritten summary right right and so many you look at that just like looking at someone's financials you could never meet me but you look at my financials you could you could imagine and see what opportunities what we're doing good and what we're failing I look at someone's daily their daily report of activity whether it's a salesperson or a technician and I can look at that piece of paper and tell you what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong how you can improve that process is key because I'm not riding in the truck with you right so I have to look at that piece of paper and then we use our electronic software and roll that up now we can look at how are you how are you towards meeting your goal for the month for the year you know we so we sit down with our employees you know on a regular basis and we say hey what goals do you have you know financially personally and how are we going to help you get there so all that ties back to what did you do yesterday right if your goal is to have a route of a certain size your income be a certain size be a manager someday did what you do yesterday is that in line with your goals so that's the kind of process and conversation we have on a regular basis that helps our people improve and get better our training is the other thing as far as process you know we've taken time to write down when we on board a technician especially is outline that first 30 days that we are with us them the first 30 days they're with us every minute not every minute but there's tasks they accomplish every day so the first day they're on board after after lunchtime they they are in the field doing the job that we've hired them for I used to have talk about mistakes I used to have people we' bring on board thought man this person is going to be perfect Y and they've been on board with us for 6 weeks and then we send them in the field guess what it's raining or it's 110° and they go oh I didn't know I was going to be doing this yeah well I wish i' had known that day one you know or the first week so we try to put you in the the toughest situation the first seven days that you're there and challenge you the first seven days that you're there and if you quit the first week man you Sav me a lot of money of training yeah you know so those are some of the process things that we've done and not being afraid to to call somebody out and saying hey maybe this isn't what you thought you signed up for and that's okay you know doesn't mean you're a bad person you just maybe you're better off working somewhere else and that's all right but if you really want to be here and you really want to be part of a growing company you know this is what it takes on a daily basis and sometimes it's it's rewarding and sometimes you're in the trenches and it's hard y but that's okay that's what we do and to see your management team with you to see your Leaders with you in the field you know on a rainy day or on a roof doing a fumigation with you um I think that's what inspires our folks to do more and like okay it can be done y you know I have your support our people are in the field and I you know I say this on a regular basis is you know we sent them out there and they think they're all alone but the reality is they have a team behind them a team in the office that's looking at their schedule how can they improve it constantly every hour every day um a sales team that's bringing in new business a management team that's finding ways to push them to be better you know so that's that team that's behind our technicians and salespeople helping them be better than they thought they could be you know it's like a sports team and you walk on the field you know yeah the quarterback's got to take the ball and throw it and go across Ross The End Zone but it takes everybody from the water boy to the trainer taping up the ankles that's all the things it takes to help them be successful and you know that's what we try to let our team know is it's not just they're not alone they're not on an island you know even if it's late at night early in the morning raining super hot you know they have a team behind them well Mike I I love the energy you bring to the industry I love everything you've done to support the industry and I appreciate you coming out and sitting down with me today you bet thanks you