Interview with Brett Madden, president of AviAway Professional Bird Control Services, conducted by Paul Giannamore at the NALP Elevate Conference 2024. Topics include Madden's transition from law to the service industry, growing a family-owned pest control business into a private equity-backed platform, exiting to private equity, recurring revenue's role in business valuations, cross-selling and referral partnership strategies, niche market expansion in bird and deer control, mosquito and tick control pricing and effectiveness, using video content in sales, and selling the family business. # Channel Identity Observations — Potomac TV ## Explicit Self-Description (Creator Claims) - **Channel name and host**: The host introduces himself as **Paul Jana Mar** (transcript spelling), welcoming viewers to **"Potomac TV"**: *"Hi, I'm Paul Jana Mar. I wanted to welcome our new subscribers to the channel."* - **Stated historical focus**: *"historically, Potomac TV has been focused on business and operational information and interviews for residential and commercial services business owners."* - **Claimed scope expansion into M&A education**: After the *"sell-side M&A Masterclass last month,"* the host says his *"LinkedIn inbox has been inundated"* with requests, so he and **Dylan** will film *"more extensive M&A Masterclasses, both focusing on the sell-side as well as the buy-side,"* covering *"choice of process, delving deep into M&A psychology"* and *"buy-side practice, approach, and due diligence."* - **Viewer-driven positioning claim**: *"this channel is largely driven by you, the viewer, and what you want to see from us."* He also solicits comments, subscriptions, and email-list signups. ## Observable Presentation Evidence ### Intended Audience - **Owners/operators of residential and commercial services businesses**, demonstrated by guest Brett Madden addressing advice *"to some of the younger guys in the resi and commercial services space that are trying to grow these businesses."* - **Lawn care / green industry business owners specifically**, shown by repeated framing like *"if you know, if you had a lawn care business and you were considering cross selling pest services"* and *"if you own a lawn care business, what what service on the pest related side would you start with?"* - **Founders considering private equity exits**, evidenced by extended discussion of Madden's 2022 sale to a PE-backed platform (Thompson Street Capital Partners) and questions like *"is that something you would consider for the bird business taking on additional outside capital."* ### Claimed/Demonstrated Scope - **Interviews with exited founders and operators**: The core of the video is a long-form founder interview covering career history, exit, and growth tactics. - **M&A and private equity content**: Discussion of PE vs. strategic buyers, multipliers, integrations, and valuation drivers (*"It's all about reoccurring revenue. That's all they really want to see on the balance sheet."*). - **Cross-selling and revenue strategy content**: Detailed operational advice on mosquito, tick, general pest, deer, and bird control add-ons for landscape companies. - **Industry event presence**: The host notes *"we're here at NALP"* (title hashtag #NALP2024), demonstrating on-location industry conference coverage. - **Advisory relationship disclosure (implicit)**: Madden references *"working with, you know, Potomac in terms of the industry knowledge"* as a mentor/advisor on his sale — suggesting the channel is connected to an M&A advisory firm serving this vertical, though this is not stated as a channel description. ### Tone and Format - **Conversational long-form interview**: Casual host-guest dialogue with humor (*"Problem politicians and problem deer"*) and digressions (personal Lyme disease story). - **Practical, tactical orientation**: Concrete pricing examples ($49 umbrella pest program, $2,000 repellent add-on vs. $80,000 netting) and branding strategies (separate mosquito micro-brand). - **Direct audience engagement infrastructure**: Subscribe prompts, email distribution list link, and comment solicitation embedded in the intro. ## Notable Distinctions - **Claim vs. demonstration**: The channel claims viewer-driven content and M&A Masterclass expansion; this video demonstrates the claimed core (business/operational interviews for resi/commercial services owners), while the M&A Masterclasses are announced but not shown here. # Delivery Observation: Brett Madden Interview — Potomac TV (#NALP2024) ## Overall Format - **Cold-open teaser**: The video opens with a clip from later in the conversation before any introduction — *""If you're expecting something that I don't deliver, we're at a disconnect."* — a common interview-edit hook, then resets to the host's channel intro. - **Host welcome segment**: Paul delivers a scripted-feeling subscriber welcome before the interview begins, including CTAs: *"you can click below and subscribe to the channel"* and *"get on our email distribution list."* - **Interview structure**: Q&A format; the host drives topic transitions (*"So, you're a lawyer turned resi commercial services guy. How the heck did this happen?"*) while the guest answers at length. ## Tone - **Conversational and informal** throughout, from both speakers. Examples: *"How the heck did this happen?"*, *"Uh-oh"* (responding to a "left field question"), and the playful *"He's not even listening."* - **Humor and self-deprecation** recur from the guest: *"Uh unfortunately, I went to law school on a bet"* and *"I joke all the time it seems like they're kind of building the space shuttle as it's coming into Earth landing."* ## Vocabulary & Recurring Phrases - **"You know"** is the guest's most frequent filler/connector — appears constantly: *""you know, kind of worked through all the different ranks"*, *"you know, kind of learned more of the sales side"*, *"it's just kind of worked out."* - **"Kind of"** as a softener recurs across the guest's answers. - The host also uses **"you know"** frequently and mirrors the guest's vocabulary back (*"Cuz you're doing monthly billing for that?"*). ## Teaching Habits & Communication Patterns - **Direct address to the interviewer by name in hypotheticals** — a recurring teaching device. The guest repeatedly uses "Paul" as a stand-in customer: - *""Hey, Paul, we're going to come in here at this price"* - *""So, if I say to you, 'Hey, Paul, it's $59. I don't care what it is, unlimited retreats.'"* - *""Hey, hang on a second, let me send you this video."* - **Analogies and metaphors** to explain business dynamics: the *""building the space shuttle as it's coming into Earth landing"* analogy for PE integration, and *""that was my Trojan horse to be able to break in other markets."* - **Concrete numbers and specifics** anchor most advice: *"$49 for anything under the sun"*, *"six services, but I charged you for 12 months"*, *""a natural extract from a grape"* (methyl anthranilate), *"25 to 35 days"* residual. - **Repetition for emphasis**, especially on core principles: *"I've always been more sales sales sales sales sales"*, *"instead of just grow grow grow grow."* - **Question-then-answer rhythm with the host**: the host frequently summarizes the guest's thesis before moving on (*"So, your thesis is we've got The primary company is the lawn care company... It's able to cross-sell mosquito services..."*). - **Circling back to themes**: the guest repeatedly returns to **relationship-over-sales** (*""I don't really care about the sales crazy as that sounds"*) and **specialization** (*"get really good at mosquitoes"*, *"mastering your craft"*), making these his clearest recurring throughlines. ## Uncertainty Notes - The transcript's speaker attribution is implicit; a few lines (e.g., the Lyme disease discussion, the "Mex" exchange) switch topics abruptly, so some turn-taking is inferred from content rather than explicit labels. - Occasional transcription garbling (*"Paul Jana Mar"*, *"I might be able to explain it to you and not in all the case"*) limits confidence in exact-wording observations for those passages. - Filler-frequency claims are qualitative; no counts are possible beyond "frequent" from the transcript alone. # Position & Reasoning Record: Brett Madden Interview (Potomac TV, #NALP2024) ## Context & Speakers - **Host (Paul, Potomac TV):** Interviews Brett Madden; opens with channel updates and announces new M&A Masterclass content (sell-side and buy-side) driven by LinkedIn requests. - **Brett Madden:** Lawyer-turned-pest-control owner; grew family pest control business in New Jersey, exited to a Thompson Street Capital Partners PE-backed platform (sold 2022); now focused on bird control. --- ## Career Path & Motivations (Madden) - Worked through all ranks of the family pest business — termite technician, fumigation, operations — then sales and growth. - **Law school "on a bet"**: someone told him he wasn't smart enough; graduated top of class at Seton Hall Law, clerked, practiced real estate/development law representing large commercial builders. - Left law due to 110-hour weeks: *"Not very conducive for family life."* - Returned to the family business when his father declined to sell; added verticals like bird control. - **Realization of trading time for dollars:** missing birthdays and significant events; *"in the first 3 years of my older son's life I was never around"*; after second child, decided change was needed. - Father had once declined an offer from Waste Management at an 11x multiple (Madden jokes about this). ## Exit Experience & Private Equity Views (Madden) - Sold to the PE platform (Thompson Street, formed Q4 2021; sale in 2022). Praises Potomac's mentorship; wishes he'd engaged advisors *before* deciding to sell: *"It really would have changed a lot of dynamics."* - Chose PE over strategic partly due to vertical concentration. - **Criticism preserved as expressed:** jokes the PE firm is *"building the space shuttle as it's coming into Earth landing"* — still learning; integration across different software "playbooks" has been challenging, especially on resi/commercial and ancillary markets. - Difficult transition from owner to consultant: *"there's certain things that I would have done much differently, but it's not my choice anymore."* - **Reason for exiting:** his father had passed away; the business was "his thing"; Madden's passion was the bird business. *"I had grown it and I enjoyed it, but I didn't love what I did."* - **Valuation lessons learned:** PE cares above all about **recurring revenue**; route density and reduced windshield time command higher multiples than higher earnings that are geographically scattered. Wishes he'd grown more strategically rather than "grow grow grow." ## Cross-Selling Pest Services into Lawn Care (Madden) - **Natural fit:** lawn care companies are often already licensed in ornamental/agricultural pesticide application; exterior residential pest is a smaller leap than commercial pest. - Recommends starting with **mosquito** services (large line item, recurring revenue), possibly tick control; general pest requires more pest-specific knowledge (ant species, spiders, roaches). - Higher-ticket add-ons: Sentricon termite bait stations, granular/power-spray services. - **Branding position: co-brand or separate brands**, not one roof with mixed messaging: specialization signals expertise to customers. Cites his own micro-brand mosquito campaign ("mosquitoes suck") that generated leads by appearing specialized against low-priced mosquito-only competitors. - **Technicians: separate teams**, not universal techs. Opposed to *"Hey, Billy has no work today. Go change your shirt"* — favors independent crews allowing deliberate staff shifts between departments. - **Failure mode he observes:** companies afraid to commit — *"if you're going to go after a market, go after it. Commit to it and make it work"* (right equipment, people, staffing). ### Pricing & Recurring Revenue Tactics - **Umbrella residential program:** ~$49–59 "anything under the sun" (excluding live animals, wood-destroying insects, interior), unlimited retreats — six services billed across 12 months of monthly credit-card billing, deliberately creating a *"forced savings account"* for winter months. - Commercial model: moderate/low base price in exchange for customer cooperation (sanitation, door gaps, etc.), with upsells when thresholds exceeded — his way of competing against high-priced national brands. - On pricing pressure from mosquito commoditization: yes, *"tremendously"* downward pressure from micro companies — his answer is relationships over price: *"if price is the only reason they're buying from you, you failed."* ## Bird, Goose & Deer Control (Madden) - For geese on suburban ponds/golf courses: low-grade deterrents (light, sound) first; then **methyl anthranilate** (grape extract repellent) as a landscaper upsell; grid systems/netting (his firm's role) as last resort. - Deer: repellents, sonic/ultrasonic options, but **physical barrier exclusion is best**; choice depends on pain point and cost (e.g., $2,000 repellent contract vs. $80,000 netting). - Bird control as a **"Trojan horse"** to enter national accounts and cross-sell pest services, leveraging specialized trust. ## Marketing Philosophy (Madden) - Massive in-house video/content library, including body-cam footage of problems and solutions; sends prospects videos, blueprints, CAD drawings to align expectations: *"If you're expecting something that I don't deliver, we're at a disconnect."* - **Relationship over sales**: *"I don't really care about the sales, crazy as that sounds"* — solving problems for free refunnels future business; plays "the long game." - YouTube's value is **close ratio**, not lead gen. - Empathy and communication are the key failure points for upsells and close rates: customers call with a problem — speed and clarity of answer win. ## Lyme Disease Experience (Madden, personal) - Doesn't recall a tick bite; severe muscle pain left him bedridden and unable to walk; dismissed by doctors as "all in your head" until a specialist (8–9 month waitlist) diagnosed two strains of Lyme; ~2 years to recover. - Believes Lyme stays in the system; now on treatment regimens focused on reducing inflammation. - Notes tick treatments are imperfect (e.g., ticks dropped by animals in untreated areas) but, done correctly, mosquito/tick services yield ~25–35 day residuals; homeowner cooperation (gutters, standing water) also required. ## Referral Partnerships (Madden) - Endorses referral partnerships (e.g., his past partnerships with heat-treatment companies for bed bugs) if the relationship is right — a good way to test a market — but warns partners can become competitors, and he personally prefers to "build it and make it work." ## AI (Madden) - Expects AI to replace call centers and back-office admin in service industries; calls it "totally remarkable" — *"I hope everybody's ready for it."* - Countervailing position: **AI only takes you so far; relationships remain paramount.** Half-jokes about "heading back to an analog point." ## Advice to Younger Operators (Madden) - **Focus on service delivery over sales** — he was overly sales-driven early; now lets service do the talking. - **Know when to stop running the business and start growing it** — his lightbulb came from hiring younger people and mentoring them to handle tasks he wasn't good at or didn't want. - Difficulty of that transition in a family business (father-son dichotomy). - Master one craft first (e.g., get really good at mosquitoes) before adding lines. ## Host Positions (Paul) - Suggests mosquito/perimeter services have become commoditized (TrueGreen et al.) — Madden agrees pricing pressure is significant. - Advocates tick control as a natural lawn-care add-on given Northeast tick prevalence — Madden agrees. - Notes New Jersey has among the worst tick problems in the country; asks open questions (branding structure, universal techs, referral viability, pricing implications) without asserting settled views. --- ## Unresolved Tensions (preserved) - Madden's workaholism persists (*"unfortunately, I am a workaholic"*) despite citing it as the reason he left law and missed family time. - Bird control's future with outside capital: open to a PE roll-up in bird control, but on next steps says twice, *"I'm not really sure."* - His relationship-over-sales philosophy coexists with a stated drive for "market dominance" and thrill of the chase in sales. # Speaker & Provenance Observation Record ## Video Metadata - **Title:** Resi & Commercial Growth Strategies: Brett Madden’s Playbook | #NALP2024 #PrivateEquity - **Video ID:** `01a168c8-293d-7656-9df8-09f350affe04` - **Format:** Interview (recorded at/around the **NALP** event; interview conducted in **Charlotte**) ## Identified Speakers & Roles ### Paul Jana Mar — **Creator / Host / Interviewer** - Introduces himself by name in the channel intro segment. - Host of **Potomac TV**, described as focused on business/operational content for residential and commercial services business owners. - Conducts the interview, asks questions, references prior conversations ("you and I were talking about it earlier," "over coffee this morning"). ### Brett Madden (spoken as "Brad"/"Brett" in close) — **Guest / Interviewee** - Background: family pest control business; lawyer (Seton Hall Law graduate, clerkship, real estate/development practice in New Jersey); returned to family business; grew it with added verticals (bird control). - Sold the pest business in **2022** to a private equity–backed platform. - Still operates a bird control company. ### Referenced (non-speaking) persons - **Dylan** — mentioned by Paul as future co-presenter of M&A Masterclass content. - **Franco** — mentioned by Brett in a joke anecdote (no role specified). - **"The Mex"** — discussed by both speakers; prior working relationship with Brett; no further identity given. - **"J-Lo"** — mentioned once by Paul; no role specified. - **Brett's father** — deceased; founded/ran the family pest control business; had received an offer from **Waste Management** (per Brett, an "11 multiplier" offer not taken). ## Referenced Third-Party Entities & Claims - **Thompson Street Capital Partners** — PE firm that assembled the platform in **Q4 2021** (per Paul); Brett sold to it in 2022. - **Waste Management** — cited by Brett as prior suitor for the family business. - **TrueGreen** — cited by Paul as an example of mosquito/perimeter pest commoditization. - **Sentricon** — termite bait station product mentioned by Brett as a cross-sell option. - **methyl anthranilate** — grape-derived goose repellent recommended by Brett. - **Potomac / "Potomac in terms of the industry knowledge"** — Brett describes selling with Potomac's guidance (relationship to the host's firm implied but not formally defined in transcript). ## Promotional Segments — **Flagged** - **Channel intro (Paul Jana Mar):** - Promotes **subscription** to the channel. - Promotes **email distribution list** link in description. - Promotes future **sell-side and buy-side M&A Masterclass** content (with Dylan), tied to the prior "sell-side M&A Masterclass" publication. - Solicits **viewer comments** for topic requests. - **End segment:** Standard sign-off; no additional promotion detected. ## Comment Availability - Host explicitly invites viewers to **"put a comment below"** — comments appear solicited/enabled per the transcript; no statement of disabled comments. ## Uncertainty Notes - Guest's spoken surname rendered as "Brett" (title says **Brett Madden**); host closes with "Brad" — treated as the same guest per title. - Host name transcribed as "Paul Jana Mar" — transcription fidelity uncertain. - The exact relationship between Potomac (host's firm) and Brett's 2022 sale is implied but only partially stated in the transcript. If you're expecting something that I don't deliver, we're at a disconnect. We're going to have to problem after the job is completed. Um with with my philosophy, I'm always trying to build a relationship. I don't really care about the sales, crazy as that sounds. I'm more more concerned about the relationship so that maybe if you move jobs or you, you know, become and do other things, you know exactly who to call for this problem. Hi, I'm Paul Jana Mar. I wanted to welcome our new subscribers to the channel. You know, historically, Potomac TV has been focused on business and operational information and interviews for residential and commercial services business owners. But after the publication of the sell-side M&A Masterclass last month, my LinkedIn inbox has been inundated with a variety of different requests. So, Dylan and I will be sitting down filming more extensive M&A Masterclasses, both focusing on the sell-side as well as the buy-side. I intend to talk about the choice of process, delving deep into M&A psychology, uh as well as extensive buy-side practice, approach, and due diligence. For those of you who have not subscribed, you can click below and subscribe to the channel. Furthermore, we've provided a link here in the description where you can get on our email distribution list. And if you do that, you'll receive an email right in your inbox with our latest publications. Feel free to put a comment below on the types of things you want to see. I mean, this channel is largely driven by you, the viewer, and what you want to see from us. Again, thanks for joining us here at Potomac TV. Brett, thanks for taking this special trip down here to Charlotte today. Absolutely. Appreciate you having me today. Yeah. So, you're a lawyer turned resi commercial services guy. How the heck did this happen? Um so, we had a family business, which was pest control, and um kind of worked through all the different ranks in terms of uh termite technician to um you know, different fumigations and you know, a lot more op-based stuff. Uh and then from there, you know, kind of learned more of the sales side of the business and then kind of went into growing the business through the years. How'd you end up going to law school though, during all this? Uh unfortunately, I went to law school on a bet. Um Uh unfortunately, I'm one of those guys that always has a chip on his shoulder in terms of, you know, people tell me that I can't do certain things. And um I don't remember where it was. They're like, "Ah, you can't go to law school. You're not smart enough. You barely made it through high school." Um went to law school, graduated uh top my class with the Seton Hall Law, uh then did um a clerkship thereafter, then concentrated on real estate and development at a firm in New Jersey, um represented large commercial builders, um loved that, um from that point, my father, you know, was still involved in the business at that time, and then he said, "Hey, I'm not selling the business. Just want to kind of let you know. I don't think you have any interest in it. You're doing your own thing." And um I said, "Nah, you know what? I'm going to come back." Um I was just kind of getting billing out 110 hours a week and you know, really grinding it, which I loved. Not very conducive for uh family life, so to speak, um to have that flexibility. So, came back to the pest control company and started growing that and uh added some different vertical markets with bird control and things of that nature, some different uh aspects of it that I could have a little more control of, um you know, to kind of handle and um you know, continue to grow the company. How many did you feel at some point you were trading, you know, time for dollars, and you wanted to get and it was one of those things that, you know, um I realized that I was a victim of me my own being a workaholic. I was doing so much and I was making everybody else a lot of money. Um don't get me wrong, I was making some decent money at the time, um but I also started seeing very early on that I was missing birthdays, I was missing significant events, um and you know, missing those things I started seeing very early on like you know, in the first 3 years of my older son's life I was never around. Um and I just started seeing that that division started really adding up and then we had our second child Luke and um I was like, I got to make a change and I didn't know what it was at the time, but um either go out on my own um or, you know, come back to this direction. So, definitely trading dollars for hours. And so, was it your father was considering retiring? Um he was considering retiring, but he was just kind of at that point in in his, you know, his path kind of done with pest control and everything and um you know, he had gotten it to where you know, a manageable point that he felt that he can maintain. Um and he was just getting ready to I joke with all the I have a joke with Franco about this. You know, he had gotten offer from um Waste Management for 11 multiplier and it was like, why didn't you take it then? Um so, you know, I think he was just looking for the next chapter of his life and you know, it was just kind of worked out and you know, kind of went forward. So, you grew that business in New Jersey for many years and then ultimately exited that to a private equity backed platform in 20, was it 22 we did that? I can't remember. Uh 20 Yeah, it's been this will be 3 years almost. 22, 21, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. And what was that like? Um you know, that was interesting, you know, working with, you know, Potomac in terms of the industry knowledge um and really the mentor in terms of having someone always to talk to, um always answering questions, professional guidance, Um, you know, it was a it was certainly a process that opened my eyes to a lot of different components of things. I wish I had the opportunity to um, meet you guys before we actually said, "Okay, we're getting ready to sell." Right? Cuz it it really would have changed a lot of dynamics for me um, in terms of the sell side of things. Um, you know, I think on the PE side versus strategic, you know, we had a lot of vertical concentration in certain aspects. Um, and I think going with the PE side um, is is been a very unique opportunity for us cuz they're kind of still learning, too. I joke all the time it seems like they're kind of building the space shuttle as it's coming into Earth landing. So, sometimes it gets a little frustrating, but um, you know, I understand the whole process in terms of what they're trying to grow and accomplish in a short period of time. So, that platform they the Thompson Street Capital Partners put that together in Q4 of '21. You sold in '22. Uh, you know, pursuing to what you just said, they were kind of learning things on the fly. Correct. Right? And so, what was, you know, what was that like for you, I guess, in the in the early stage? you know, I I joke about it now and it's sometimes I wish there was a playbook for the equity side because I feel like when they do a lot of these integrations, um, and I feel like we're all operating off different playbooks um, in terms of software. So, you know, on a 30,000-ft view level, I understand what they're trying to do to try to get everybody under the same systems and maintain and manage everything. Um, but it it's it's definitely on the resi commercial side and and let's call it ancillary market side, you know, there's a lot that they still don't understand. Um, and getting everybody to have the same kind of communication flow, that's been challenging. And especially if it took me a a time to uncalibrate myself as an owner to kind of a consultant role cuz there's certain things that I would have done much differently, but it's not my choice anymore which is a very difficult thing as a former owner. You know, we're here at NALP. Um you've your business focuses on you know, you've got the bird business and then of course you have the pest business. What do you think about that from a cross out perspective for green industry companies to add on pest control and termite services? Yeah, I mean you and I were talking about it earlier. I think there's a lot of huge upsell. We're seeing a lot of mosquito based services. This be where you and I were speaking about mosquito systems. That's a huge line item that I think in the right markets could potentially bring a lot of excess to revenue. But not only just the mosquitoes, you got the power spray, granular services. You mean you're already there. So we're seeing a lot of these green companies really kind of start getting some understanding in terms of that. They're already licensed in most cases in ornamental and agricultural in terms of pesticide application. So it's truly not that much of a leap to kind of make that next iteration for exterior residential pest control which quite frankly I think is a lot easier than the commercial side of pest control. But it's a natural fit across the board. So I think you got some opportunity for some low hanging fruit recurring revenue and also some you know, higher ticket items. Even the Sentricon termite bait stations would be another option. But you have some high ticket items as well that would really make it to me more attractive to be able to kind of go after your current client base with these increased level of service opportunities. I'm interested if you know, if you had a lawn care business and you were considering cross selling pest services, would you set up the pest in its own brand or would you do it all under one roof? I would do it as a co-brand or separate because one thing I do find is and this is just through my years of experience especially on the bird side, you know, let the people that are good with they do do it and then invest properly into those other vertical markets and really kind of dominate those markets. Fundamentally I have an issue with when, you know, you're let's say you're um spraying for ants and the next minute you're, you know, doing something completely different on termites or whatever. I think the more highly specialized and and granular focus you can become on these different markets allows you to offer more expertise and understanding of the customer base. I think that cross-platform is, "Hey, we're already on your property where you might have to pay another service provider x amount of dollars but we can save you money cuz we're already here. So, let's just add this and kind of bundle your program um and then systematically maybe start dripping out higher, you know, ticket items um from that perspective. So, you're saying you know, mosquito might be branded, you know, you you might have Paul's lawn care and the mosquito's branded as a separate brand. Correct. I even did that on the pest control side. Okay, let's talk about that. What you do? Yeah, so I mean we kind of had a slogan, you know, mosquito suck and we tried to really focus going after the mosquito companies cuz they were I I want to say cutting the market out from under us cuz they were so low, they look so highly specialized cuz that's from the customer basis that's all they did. So, if that's all they did, you think They're the specialists, right? They're supposed to be the best at it when in reality they really weren't um in a lot of cases. So, I think it's one of those things where we tried to have a really micro brand to generate more leads from that narrative from the customer perspective um and it worked. You know, we generated a lot of more mosquito leads. Um I just think I think where I see a lot of failures with cross-selling is people are afraid to take the plunge and make the investment in the right equipment, the right people, the right staffing. Um if you're going to go after a market, go after it. Commit to it and make it work. But what about Okay, I can see the cross-selling to a different brand that's in-house. What about service? In terms of what? Well, I mean, do you use universal techs to do If I've got a lawn care company and I'm doing mosquito, would I really want the lawn care tech doing mosquito? No. I don't think so. My personal opinion. What would you do? Um I would have an independent team and crew so that we can kind of bat back and forth because if if we're able to kind of co-brand or keep it separate, I might be able to generate more mosquito revenue that I can then piggyback off the landscape and vice versa. So, I'm always trying to pinball around to say that, "Hey, listen, you know, I'm branding this independently. Let's really go after this with the right technicians and right staffing. And this might then we can offer lawn care to them." Or then, you know, lawn care, "Hey, you guys are slow, come over transition you over to here." So, you can kind of make those unilateral shifts amongst the different owners or you know, um departments or whatever you have you want to structure it. Um but to me, I think that would be more effective than, "Hey, you know, Billy has no work today. Go change your shirt." And you know, he doesn't normally do this. I think you set yourself up for failure and not really, you know, achieving what you're, you know, in my case, I like to go after market dominance. So, your thesis is we've got The primary company is the lawn care company. It owns the customer relationship. Mhm. It's able to cross-sell mosquito services, for example, Yep. which is served by a different brand and a different technician. Right. But it's effectively all under one roof. Correct. And we see that with a lot of the pest control companies, too, where they have different subsets, a termite, a mosquito, and a pest. And in some cases, even a wildlife. You know, so you see that all under, you know, one, you know, one primary brand, but then you see co-brands of that in terms of that and, you know, scheduled differently, structured differently, um you know, cuz they're all different frequencies. They're all kind of different applications as well. So, if if you own a lawn care business, what what service on the pest related side would you start with? Would it be mosquito or would you go into general? Mosquito. I'd go to mosquito. I like general pest, too, cuz, you know, one of the things that we did that was successful residentially, we offered an umbrella program. I think we charged you $49 for anything under the sun. Um, exclusive of live animal, wood destroying insect, um, and anything interior. Because we're still using the base broad-spectrum chemicals outside, so who cares what it is? So, if I say to you, "Hey, Paul, it's $59. I don't care what it is, unlimited retreats." You know, and we put a little twist on it. So, we only did six services, but I charged you for 12 months. Because what I was trying to do was create revenue in my winter months when we were slow. So, I had basically a forced savings account, you know, come October through the winter months, we were still generating revenue. How so? Cuz you're doing monthly billing for that? Correct. So, I didn't want you to pay up front. I wanted monthly billing forced every month, hitting the credit card, hitting the credit card. Boom, in the winter months we stopped doing the service. We kept getting paid for those additional 6 months. At what point would a a company like a landscaper or lawn care business think about adding general? You'd start with mosquito. And then would you get into general pest at some point? I think general pest you're going to have to have a little more pest specific knowledge, right? Cuz you're going to have a whole host of different ant species, different spiders, earwigs, roaches. Um, so, you're going to see a lot of different pests outside that you can, if you don't have the right knowledge base, you know, you might not be able to really handle. Mosquitoes is pretty simple. Right? In in your market, what was the frequency? Was it every 21 days for mosquitoes? Typically, and it also depends on you may, you know, you got to remember, too, that rainstorms, standing water, you know, all your basic thing. Have you cleaned the gutters? Have you done certain things? Right? So, give or take, you know, I think depending on your pesticide cocktail, how you sprayed, um, even your application methods are different. Like, we used to use spreader stickers when we would spray to make our material stick on the plants a little bit longer. Uh, we would use adjuvants to make the water wetter. So, we had a couple different things that we would adjust for to get a better treatment across the board. You know, you're also on a large bird control company. I know you guys are doing big accounts in cities like New York City. But, you know, when you think about bird control for like, for example, the suburban golf course, for example, a lot of times, or or you know, you've got a subdivision, and there's a retention pond, and they've got geese problems. I know a lot of landscape and lawn care companies face these sorts of problems. You know, what what are some sort of services they can provide there? Yeah, I mean, I think from that perspective, that's a little bit a little more nebulous and harder to answer, right? Um, I think you could start out with some low-grade deterrents, uh, in terms of lighting, sound units. Uh, I think you can progress into some more chemical treatments like, you know, I always recommend to landscapers, uh, it's called methyl anthranilate. It's a natural extract from a grape, and it's a repellent base for Canadian geese. You spray it on the lawn, they don't like it, they get basically get a little indigestion when they eat it, um, and then they go somewhere else. Great upsell opportunity, um, for landscapers and that vertical market in terms of, um, you know, not just golf courses, condos, any any associations like that. Um, you know, and then you would come in if those were failures, then you would come into a little more something, grid systems and netting a ponds and things of that nature. That would be more where we kind of come in into play. You know, one thing I'm curious about, you're in one of the worst states with regard to well, not only taxes, but also deer. Deer's an issue, right? Absolutely. Problem politicians and problem deer. So, did you guys deal with that at all? Um there's some different repellents you can use and again, another cross opportunity to sell for for this industry. Um there are some different chemical applications, granular applications, sonic and ultrasonic applications as well that can be used. But at the end of the day, you know, anything like that, physical barrier exclusion is your best. Right? But depends on what you're you know, I think when you're offering these things to clients, you know, coming back to your pond example, hey, we can add uh repellent spray to our monthly contract. It's going to be another $2,000, or you can have another company come in and put a net or a grid over it, it's going to cost you 80 grand. Right? So, it really depends on how high the pain point is and how long you've been dealing with it in terms of, you know, the actual problem. Now, as you grew that business, you were pretty innovative on the marketing side. I'm interested, you know, in your on your resi pest side. I know you did a lot of commercial. What were some things that you guys did on a mark from a marketing perspective? You know, we were a little bit different in terms of how we market it because we tried to compete commercially with the bigger accounts. So, we would say, "Hey, Paul, we're going to come in here at this price, which is a moderate to low price, but it's a cooperation. I need you to do this, this, and this, and if you don't do these things, then you're going to have to get charged an upsell or special." And that was kind of our model to keep us competitive, different than the national chains or national brands. Their their monthly pricing or reoccurring pricing was through the roof, but they didn't have any of the upsell potential that we did. So, I always felt, "Hey, if you were a good customer and you listened to the things that we kind of had a partnership over, that works perfectly because you're making my job easier, I'm making your job easier, and you're saving money. Um Um, different where you don't do anything, you don't empty the trash or you know the on a the appropriate frequency, you don't have you have gaps under your doors, etc. like that. Um, you don't maintain the ponds or in this case, that's going to cause pest problems to the point where it's going to exceed the threshold that you're acceptable to take, then we need an upsell. So, we had a little bit of a different model that way and it allowed us to compete against the very large strategics um, on face-to-face pricing. What about you? You've been very heavily involved in digital marketing over the years. What What sort of stuff were you doing with that? Um, you know, on the digital side, you know, we have our own staff that does, you know, all our uh, marketing in terms of videos and content. We we produce so much content and for me, it's great because I'm able to take what we've done and I might be able to explain it to you and not in all the case you might not understand it, but during that process if I said to you, "Hey, hang on a second, let me send you this video." And I send you the video, you're like, "Oh, okay, I see it." Cuz we've done so many different applications, there's really nothing that we haven't accomplished or done that I can send to you. And when you visualize it, that reduces your, you know, your threshold um, with us in terms of, "Oh, I I see it now. I get it. Yeah, this this is what we need." Um, So, you were basically videoing the problems of the everything. I mean, guys have body cams. I mean, we literally take so much content, it's crazy. We just have I can't even tell you how much content. And you would send that out to customers that have an issue. Correct. Correct. And we still do the same thing today. So, now we produce videos, you know, and put them on our YouTube channel. Um, we got private videos and public videos depending on certain applications. Um, and we share those with, you know, certain applications depending on what it is. I mean, do you feel like a lot of businesses come in from YouTube over the years or not so much? Uh, for us, I I think not the lead gen, but it helps. The YouTube has allowed me to have a better close ratio because again to me if you're calling me on the phone you may have called four or five other people. Um, I'm trying to present to you the best option based on the fact factual hypothetically you've given me. Um, so to me being able to send you a video, send you the right marketing materials, do blueprints, CAD drawings and everything to get your understanding cuz one thing we never want to do is we want our expectations to be equal. Um, if you're expecting something that I don't deliver, we're at a disconnect. We're going to have a problem after the job is completed. Um, with um, with my philosophy I'm always trying to build a relationship. I don't really care about the sales crazy that sounds. I'm more more concerned about the relationship so that maybe if you move jobs or you, you know, become and do other things you know exactly who to call for this problem. You know, so to us it's a little more grassroots um, kind of playing the long game as opposed to, you know, kind of going after the nickel and dime just, you know, small little stuff. Does that help you equally on the resi as well as the commercial side? Yeah, I mean again we you and I were talking I I was we were talking um, you know, there's times back in my day I would spend an hour or two hours talking to someone residentially and didn't even turn into a sale. A lot of times, you know, if I can solve a person's problem without the need for me, that's more powerful and people question that all the time. Oh, you're not making money. I'm like, yeah, but next time they're going to call me. If their mother has a problem, anybody has a problem they're always going to come back to me. So that it's always trying to refunnel back to me and staying off the internet, you know, so that's kind of my, you know, internal thought process. You know, you're a pretty young guy. I know you run multiple businesses. When you what what was the reason that you ultimately decided to partner with Thompson Street and sell that business in 2022? Um, I think they were a good fit. They were new to the the you know, they were doing some exciting things. You know, from from a growth standpoint, this was an area that, you know, in our region it was lacking for them. So, it was a good opportunity not only for me, but you know, for our staff as well to kind of continue to grow and allow not only, you know, myself, but my staff to grow with them as they grew. From your perspective, I understand why Thompson Street would want to do Why did you want to Why did you decide to exit? You could have continued to grow that business. Um you know, truthfully, my father had passed away. And I think it was more of his thing than my thing in terms of the overall. I grew up in the business, so it was just normal to me. You know, but after he had passed away, it was like just it was just kind of more of a right timing thing for us. You know, I was so focused on the bird side of the business to be honest. That was my own thing. So, I don't know, you know, from a generational thing you know, is it you're trying to get out of your parents' footsteps or you know, that type of thing. But I had grown it and I enjoyed it, but I didn't love what I did. You know, and to me I think you really need to be passionate about what you do to be able to clock in every day and succeed to be honest. So, what's next on the horizon for you? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we continue to grow the bird business, you know. We do some different sales programs we're working on and I'm always looking for new opportunities in terms of I think I have a thirst to learn and always do something else to challenge me. It's It's funny even from a sales perspective, you know, after I sell something I'm like, "Okay, what's next?" You know, regardless of the amount like the euphoria's over. To me it's a thrill of the chase and really the grind and kind of working hard at what I do. And unfortunately, I am a workaholic. You know, so So, I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure. You know, you've got a taste of how private equity works. I mean, is that something you would consider for the bird business taking on additional outside capital to go out and do acquisitions and Yeah, I mean we would love to do something in terms of you know, being able to acquire and grow that type of brand for roll up in terms of you know, bird control cuz I think it's such a it's such a unique market that really not that many people understand and I think the people that do do it, you know, are kind of super niche but there's such a need for it and you know, when we had both the pest control and the bird business, it was great for me because I'd be able to come in on to the birds and oh while I'm here, can I go check your bait stations? Can I go do this? Can I get on the you know, the bidder's list to do this? And we landed a lot of national accounts that way because they had such trust in us in terms of what we did on the bird control side. I had no barrier venture on the pest side, you know, so you know, you and I kind of talked about different you know, ways to break into markets. To me, that was my Trojan horse to be able to break in other markets that normally people wouldn't even talk to me. Um, you know, cuz there's such it's such a specialized niche in what we do. Over coffee this morning, somebody asked me a question. I'm going to ask it to you because I don't have a great answer for this. Um, what do you see as the viability for like for example, a lawn care business to go out in the market and do a referral partnership with other sorts of businesses, pest control for example, instead of providing the services themselves, actually trading customers back and forth and focus, you know, sticking to their knitting so to speak. Yeah, I mean I think if it's the right partner, 100% I I think that's something we do that now with a lot of different things. Um, and we did that on the pest control side for example, um, we would partner with, you know, different heat treatment companies and you know, different things like that for bed bugs. Um, so I think if if the relationship is right but typically I think what winds up happening is you start learning really quick and you start seeing different revenue pieces and then you want to say, "Okay, you know, so I think that'd would a great way to kind of test the market potentially to see hey, what can you generate, you know, and I think it's I'm I'm a tough person to ask cuz I always do things backwards. I build it and make it work cuz I have no choice at that point, right? Cuz I've invested and did it. Um, you know, I I do 110% and I know it's going to work and there's no doubt in my mind and I'm it's going to work. Um, you know, so I think for people that that are a little bit not sure of it, yeah, you go reach out to certain professionals and see if you can't link up with a mentor or, you know, to try to cut that learning curve down to see, but then they might turn into a competitor. Yeah. You know, let me ask you this. What's some advice you can give to some of the younger guys in the resi and commercial services space that are trying to grow these businesses? Maybe some mistakes you made or some things you wished you would have realized years ago. Um, hm. Or maybe you just did everything right, I don't know. No, I mean I I made a ton of mistakes. I'm just trying to think of something, you know, I think really taking the time to understand things and and more not so focused on growth, but more strictly on your service that you're providing. I've always been cut from unfortunately more of a sales side of things. So, I've always been more sales sales sales sales sales whereas I've gotten older, you know, I kind of focus more on the operations side of things and I kind of let the service do the talking for the sales. Um, you know, where I think you know, early on I was just so sales driven, um, you know, I think you again you have to be passionate, you have to have a good understanding and willingness, you know, um, you know, I'm sure on the lawn care side and now on the pest side I used to joke with people we deal with people's problems all day long. They're not calling to say, hey, how you doing? Having a good day. So, you have to be able to be empathetic and understand and be able to communicate to people and it's that lack of communication or inability that I see a lot of failure points for upsells and and enclose rates and things of that nature. Um people are calling us for a reason. They have a problem. How fast can you get there? What's it going to cost me? That's what it takes. So, you're saying focusing more on the service delivery. You know, and I and I think that's a common situation. A lot of guys you talk to folks here. Everyone's focused on sales, advertising. How do you get more front-end customers? Yeah. And I also think too to that point, you know, you have to know when to step away from running the business to growing the business. How did you figure that out? Uh it just took time. It just was one of those things that just took me some good amount of time to realize, "Hey, I'm doing all this stuff. I'm doing all this stuff, but I'm not You know, I'm running and doing it, but I'm not growing the business." And you know, for me was one of those lightbulb moments where I started hiring people that were a lot younger than me. To let them and mentor them to kind of learn and and do the things that either I wasn't good at or didn't want to do, so I could focus on, "Okay, hey, what's our next move? What's our next jumping point?" And that's where we saw most of our, you know, gains, um you know, when when I was able to focus on what are we doing? What's the business? But And what was that I mean, why didn't you do that earlier? Did you Did you have the mindset that you were the best at all these different things? No, I mean, I think to me it was difficult, you know, being in a family business, right? Um so, hey, you know, your father wanted to do this so wanted to do that or you know, so I think that dichotomy was always a little bit, you know, difficult. Um I think from an advice standpoint, just be good at what you do and stick to what you do. Don't try to do too much, you know? So, I think if you're going to break into the pest market, figure out what you do. Get really good at mosquitoes, you know? And then maybe, you know, maybe add on something else from that point, you know? But I think getting really good and mastering your craft is is extremely important. Speaking of mosquitoes, I I I mean, the mosquito services are relatively new advent, right? 10 years ago you didn't see much of that. No. And I feel to a certain degree, you know, a lot of that has become somewhat commoditized, right? TrueGreen started doing it, the perimeter pest and mosquito. So, you start to see that. Have you seen downward pressure on pricing from Tremendously. Yeah, I mean, you know, I I think what we've seen is there's so many different micro companies doing this now, portraying themselves as experts, um it's caused a lot of the pricing to really come down, you know, and that's to me where if you don't focus on sales, but you focus on the relationship, you know, 10 15 20 bucks a month isn't going to make a difference cuz they know, hey, you know, it's built on a relationship where you call and, you know, the services are provided. Lyme disease is a big issue up in the Northeast, right? Yes, sir. Did you guys do any services related I I I guess tick and mosquito are effectively the same It is. Yeah, it is. And And it's so tough too, especially with ticks because, you know, you could wind up doing a barrier treatment for ticks, uh and then a squirrel comes running through the front yard and sits on the front porch and tick drops off. You know, you're not treating the front porch uh in terms of that. So, ticks is a little bit different in terms of But, you know, I know in the past couple years there's been some incredible advances in tick control in terms of uh different applications and things of that nature that I've seen, you know. Um and again, I think delving into the pests from the lawn care side, you know, those are the pain points that people want to, you know, want to correct. think, you know, at least at bare minimum, tick control would be a natural add-on to lawn care, right? Yes. People want to spend time in the lawn. Yep. That's where the ticks hang out. Correct. And, you know, from what I'm reading, your New Jersey, that whole area has got one of the worst tick problems in the country. Speaking from someone who had Lyme. How was that by the way? I forgot you had Lyme. How was that? was um it made me question a lot of different things as far as health care. Um you know, I don't even remember having a tick bite. It was one of those things that you know, um I may have been bit as a kid and it was just in my bloodstream and something you know, caused it to kind of activate so to speak. What were the symptoms? How did you realize you had it? Um it took me a long time actually um cuz there was a lot of different I had a lot of muscle cramps and pain to the point where I couldn't even walk. Um went through a bunch of different treatments and you know, everybody said, "Oh, it's just in your head." I'm like, "Guys, this is you know, not in my head. There's something wrong here." What do you mean you couldn't walk? Physically I was I was in bed. I was bedridden. That's how bad the the muscle pain was. Okay. So, how was it diagnosed? Um I finally got into a specialist that had a 8-month, 9-month waiting list. Um ran a battery test and I had two different strains of Lyme. Um and it took me probably about 2 years to kind of fully rebuild and kind of get back to normal. And and Lyme is a virus? Is that right? It's a tick-borne base, you know. Um and you know, there's a lot of different things in addition to Lyme, mold, and other, you know, components that I think um are in that same kind of genre of, you know, illnesses. But you know, the medical community by large did didn't even know what it was. You know, I had different high-level doctors saying, "Hey, this is all in your head." And I'm like, you know, you could see what my body is not able to even do, you know. But Lyme Lyme's treatable, but it's not curable, is that right? believe they think it's in your system. Once you have it, you have it. And what about for you? Have you Do you still experience any of the symptoms? Now, I'm on different regimens and treatment protocols and I'm like super, you know, hyper-focused on things that reduce inflammation and you know, knowing what I need to do to kind of stay um in my current shape, so to speak. And that's largely from hanging out in wooded areas, just the ground. Correct. Yep. Yep. But I never remember being bitten by a tick or anything else. You know, but you mean again, same thing with mosquitoes, you see these different illnesses and stuff. It's real stuff. You know, that's why I said you need to be really good at your craft and know if you're going to treat someone's house, you need to treat it the right way. But I mean, how effective are these tick control and mosquito control services in a home? I'm just curious. Um I think if done correctly, you know, um with the right applications and the and the right um uh machines and application methods, I think it's highly effective, you know, I think you're getting a good residual for at least anywhere from 25 to 35 days, depending on weather. Um you know, but there's some part of that that the residential homeowner has to do, too. Cleaning the gutters, reducing standing water, you know, things of that nature. So, it is a kind of a cuts both ways, you know. Doesn't mean you're not going to walk down the street and get bit by a mosquito. Is it deer that are typically bringing these ticks to the yard? Typically either deer or squirrels, one of the two. Raccoons, you know, smaller animals. They're mainly deer, the deer tick. You know, now that you've been through kind of this whole private equity roll-up, you're getting a better understanding of how they look at things from a valuation perspective, right? And obviously recurring services are important. So, I'm interested, you know, what have you learned in recent years about this and you're still actively involved with the PE shop and how how they look at things. Yeah, I mean, I I you know, you and I were joking about this earlier and it's one of those things where I wish I had known certain things earlier on. End of the day, it's all about reoccurring revenue. That's all they really want to see on the balance sheet. Um you know, so and making sure that those reoccurring revenue opportunities, you know, are grounded in terms of they're making money. How much are ancillary services, you know, um I joke all the time like you know, we could have big ticket sales items. They're like, yeah, okay. But what about that $19 reoccurring month revenue service that continues to go in perpetuity, you know, so I think, you know, adding those type of add-on services to make your stop visit more profitable, reducing windshield time, you know, getting more route density, um you know, those are the things that we're really looking at as far as, you know, buying a company. They'll pay much more, you know, on a multiplier for a company that has much greater route density, less windshield time, is fully optimized than they would for someone that's maybe making more money, but is all over the place and is scattered. Um you know, so I I really wish I had back to one of your earlier questions, that would be something I would have really hyper-focused on instead of just grow grow grow grow, not caring where the growth was, but being more strategic about growing certain areas, um you know, continually. In addition to that, what about pricing, customer pricing? Did any of your thoughts on that change? Um you know, we've seen some different pricing increases, um and I think we're a little bit tough to answer that question because of our upsell model, um but I think the more you present as an expert and you're good at your craft, I don't if if price is the issue and the only reason why they're buying from you, you failed, in my opinion. Um you know, that shouldn't be the only thing that the decision is based on is price, you know, you should be really good at what you do. I'm going to ask you a left field question. Uh-oh. What do you think about, you know, the implications for AI on these resi and commercial businesses going forward? Um you know, again, you know, I joke we're going to be heading back to an analog point at some time in the future. You know, some of the services in terms of the call services, the scheduling services, um are just totally remarkable. Um I do think if you're not prepared for it, a lot of people are going to be replacing call centers um in different, you know, back admin side of things. I think there's going to be a huge movement once it kind of really trickles down to the pest control landscape and these service-based industries. Um I hope everybody's ready for it, you know. I don't know where it's going, um but it's certainly exciting. But, you know, weaving back into another topic, that's where I still think you need to build relationships cuz I think the AI is only going to take you so far. Um you got to be able to have those relationships that you can make calls and connections and, you know, always be willing to learn um and not just, you know, trust AI. But, what does that mean to you? Building relationships with the customers. Um I I think it's a matter of, you know, and I'll, you know, say what you will about the Mex. Um He's not even listening. Sa- sa- say what you will about the Mex, you know, he always picks up the phone when I call. Uh he always calls me back. Um you know, full speed, full of energy. I think building those relationships is something that is is paramount in a long-term relationship in terms of trying to establish something cuz you never know where that's going to turn, you know, where you're going to divot, where another opportunity is going to be. Um you know, so I think from that standpoint, a continual, you know, it always grows, you know, it always it's always something that continues to develop. Speaking of the Mex, what was it like working with him? Uh The Mex, the Mex, the Mex. He was always uh high speed, heart in the right place. Always never disappointed, that's for sure. Like I said, high speed and uh I don't know what your girlfriend tells you, but like I said, he's a he's a lot he's the best way to put it. This is what I said to J-Lo, he's an acquired taste. Absolutely. Well, Brad, I appreciate you making a special trip down here to see us, man. It was great to you guys having me today. Sounds great. Thank you. Appreciate it.