Interview recorded at the NALP Elevate Conference 2024 in Charlotte, NC. Host Paul Giannamore speaks with Krisjan Berzins, President and CEO of Kingstowne Lawn & Landscape, about growing a residential lawn care and landscaping business in Northern Virginia. Topics include client care as a driver of sustainable growth, route density and operational efficiency, intentional growth over rapid expansion, recurring revenue and a la carte service options, expansion into services like landscape lighting, irrigation, and recurring home service plans, rebranding, company culture, and balancing quality of life with business leadership. Chapters also cover the guest's path from groundskeeper to business owner and his team's approach to proposals and residential-focused pricing. # Channel Identity Observations — Video 01a168c8 ## Explicit Self-Description (Creator Claims) The host, **Paul Jamison** (transcribed as "Paul jamore"), opens with a direct statement of channel identity and scope: > "historically pomac TV has been focused on business and operational information and interviews for residential and Commercial Services business business owners" - **Channel name stated**: "Patomic TV" / "pomac TV" (transcript variants). - **Claimed format**: interviews and business/operational content for service business owners. - **Announced expansion**: following the "CIIDE M&A Master Class," he states LinkedIn demand prompted plans for "more extensive m&a master classes" covering **sell-side and buy-side**, M&A psychology, due diligence, and "extensive buy-side practice approach." ## Audience Engagement & Calls to Action Observable presentation directed at viewers/subscribers: - Welcoming **new subscribers** to the channel. - **Subscribe prompt**: "you can click below and subscribe to the channel." - **Email list**: "we've provided a link here in the description where you can get on our email distribution list." - **Viewer-driven content claim**: "this channel is largely driven by you the viewer and what you want to see from us" — a claim of audience-responsive programming; the video itself demonstrates the interview format consistent with that stated scope. ## Intended Audience (Demonstrated) - **Landscape/green-industry and home-services business owners**: the guest addresses "a lot of folks that are that are watching this" regarding small-company growth patterns ("as any small company starts to grow and is having requests from clients…"). - Topics discussed assume owner-operator knowledge: route density, recurring vs. design-build revenue, marketing spend, client care staffing, branding (Dan Antonelli/KickCharge rebrand). ## Claimed Scope vs. Demonstrated Content | Claimed | Demonstrated in this video | |---|---| | Interviews with residential/commercial service business owners | Long-form interview with Christian, owner of a ~85-employee residential landscape firm in Northern Virginia/DC | | Business & operational information | Deep operational detail: client care staffing, a-la-carte service model, pricing strategy, marketing history (Angie's List, direct mail, Google PPC) | ## Metadata Observations - Title hashtags **#NALP2024 #TeamBuilding** suggest association with the National Association of Landscape Professionals event context and a team-building theme; the transcript itself contains no mention of NALP, so this is metadata-level, not creator-stated, evidence. ## Notes on Evidence Quality - The self-description is **explicit and quotable** (channel intro). - No private motives inferred; guest statements about his own business (e.g., "I'm not bragging, I'm just telling how it is") are his claims, not verified facts about the business. # Delivery Observation: Podcast Interview (#NALP2024) ## Overall Format - **Interview structure**: A host (Paul) interviews a guest (Christian) about his landscape business; the host drives topics while the guest delivers extended narrative answers. - The video opens with a **channel intro** by the host welcoming subscribers: > "hi I'm Paul jamore I wanted to welcome our new subscribers to the channel" — including calls to subscribe, join an email list, and comment. ## Host Delivery Patterns - **Short, guiding questions** that hand off to the guest: > "so what are you up to now you're in the DC Metro Area let's talk about your business" - **Playful/teasing openers**: > "so let's start with the name your name would your mom drunk when she" (light joke about the guest's name). - **Restating the guest's answers to confirm understanding**: > "so if I did a if I did a web form somebody would contact me and I'd be off on my day one of your team members would go over to my place take a look around and put together a proposal" - **Brief affirmations and summaries**: > "that's a great way to do it", > "that makes perfect sense" - **Occasional banter/jokes from the guest**, which the host absorbs: guest jokes > "or be the the mailman I don't know but anyway sorry bad joke" - Closing question framed explicitly: > "so I guess in closing I wanted to ask you" ## Guest Delivery Patterns ### Recurring Verbal Habits - **Frequent "you know" as a filler/connective phrase** — appears constantly: > "you know historically", > "you know it's interesting", > "you know I'm not bragging" (this recurs in the transcript, appearing many times throughout). - **Repeated "uh"/"um" fillers and stuttered restarts**, suggesting an unscripted, conversational register: > "it it it makes things interesting", > "we we we were business partners for a while" - **Repeated phrase "I'm not bragging"** used to preface unusual claims (appears at least three times): > "I'm not bragging it's just kind of what works for us", > "I'm not bragging I'm just telling how it is" - **Self-deprecating qualifiers**: > "I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that at our Peak I think we were spending like I don't know 75 grand a year", > "I'm almost embarrassed to admit", > "this is going to sound corny" - **Repeated use of "lens" framing**: > "looking through the customer lens", > "seeing things through the customer lens it's really really important to me" - **"Very" repetition for emphasis**: > "I'm very very very grateful for that" ### Teaching/Storytelling Habits - **Concrete numbers to anchor every point**: ~85 employees, ~60 production staff, ~4,000 customers within 8 miles, "$5 to $30,000 range", "about a third of what it was at its peak". - **Analogies to explain business models**: > "our maintenance services are more like a like a high-end Steakhouse", and > "it's sort of a street by street Pond Ripple sort of organic growth" - **Origin-story framing**: > "I literally took my my dad's Craftsman uh lawnmower and started knocking on doors" - **First-person decision-making rationale**, often with explicit tradeoff logic: > "the decision I made was why are we going to take less on a commercial job just because it has a larger dollar amount associated with it" - **Anticipating and naming objections/critics**: > "so I've had some critics say it's very it can be very impersonal and I think there's an argument to be made there" - **Casual candor about personal history**: > "went to college for two years played football uh joined the fraternity drank a lot of beer uh didn't study much" ## Uncertainty Notes - Tone (warmth, humor) is inferred from word choice and banter only; no audio/visual delivery cues are available from the transcript. - Pattern frequency claims (e.g., "you know") are approximate; exact counts were not tallied. # Position Record: Client Care, A la Carte Services, & Beyond (Pomac TV / #NALP2024) ## Speakers - **Paul Jamore** — Host, Pomac TV (identified in transcript) - **Christian** — Guest; owner of a residential landscape company in Northern Virginia/DC Metro (Kingstown; surname not fully given in transcript — first name "Christian" used by host) --- ## Intro Segment (Paul Jamore) - Announces plans for expanded **M&A master classes** (sell-side and buy-side) with Dylan, prompted by LinkedIn demand after the "CIDE M&A master class." - Encourages subscriptions, email list sign-up, and viewer-driven content requests. --- ## Christian's Business Profile & Positions ### Market & Service Mix - Operates in **Northern Virginia / DC market** (Fairfax, Arlington, Prince William counties) — "some of the wealthiest counties per capita in the nation"; notes this was **luck, not strategy**. - ~**70% residential maintenance**, ~30% design-build; nearly exclusive residential, which he calls "somewhat unique" for a company of his size. - Niche: **small, compact, high-density properties**, not large estates. - ~**85 employees**: ~60 production staff; account managers defined as **sales** roles (assigned by zip code); plus a "robust" **client care team**. ### Client Care Philosophy - Prefers term **"client care"** over "customer service" (connotation). - Consultants questioned the non-revenue client care staff; he calls it part of the **"secret sauce"** — differentiator requiring real people, not bots. - **No dedicated rep per client**; account managers assigned by zip code. - **Asynchronous estimating**: web form leads often receive a customized contract in ~24 hours **without any prior contact** — team walks the property; client need not be present. - Acknowledges critics: "it can be very impersonal" and close rates might improve with more personal contact; he argues busy clients getting 4–5 quotes likely won't meet five companies for hours. Relationship becomes **more personal post-onboarding**. ### Why Not Commercial - Found his residential margins made commercial bids **20–30% higher** than competitors; property managers/HOAs pushed back. - Key stated reasoning (quoted): > "why are we going to take less on a commercial job just because it has a larger dollar amount associated with it... I'd rather just get a lot more of the smaller more profitable contracts." - Only commercial work comes via HOA relationships where homeowners had bad experiences with underbidding large firms; calls these **outliers**, hard to scale. - Criticizes the common lowball-then-upsell commercial tactic: > "I don't subscribe to that. I don't like to be treated that way" — accepts possibly losing business as a result. ### Design-Build Positioning - Wheelhouse: **$5,000–$30,000 projects**, days not weeks on site; large projects done occasionally, not actively sought. - Sees heavy competition and weaker net margins on big jobs. - **Maintenance "pays the bills"** — recurring revenue is the sweet spot; used to have "a chip on my shoulder" about "you cut a lot of grass" comments, no longer embarrassed. - Mowing "probably not the most profitable service" but a **gateway** to higher-margin services. - **Pricing pressure**: maintenance feels more commodity-like (lower barriers to entry); design-build less apples-to-apples so price is less decisive. ### Growth & Marketing - ~**4,000 active maintenance customers within 8 miles** of the office; growth has been entirely **organic**, "street by street," no acquisitions or purchased customer lists. - **Route density** as profitability key — windshield time and load/unload compound with larger service areas. - Marketing history: at peak spent **~$75k/year with Angie's List** (somewhat embarrassed), heavy direct mail and Google PPC, "throwing money" without attribution. - After hiring a marketing firm: budget **cut to ~1/3 of peak**; last year was **highest revenue ever**. - Still does **direct mail**: expensive, full-page standalone pieces, targeted to ~1,000 specific recipients rather than 10,000 broad sends; admits **ROI is hard to quantify** but sees it as part of cumulative brand exposure. - **No door-to-door sales** — explicitly personal: he dislikes unannounced door knocking himself and won't ask staff to do what he won't; believes it commoditizes (outsourced canvassers build no rapport, "it's all price"). ### Ancillary Services - **Landscape lighting**: only as design-build enhancements; good margins; could push standalone with a dedicated specialist but hasn't — "they're not finding us, but we're not looking for them either." - **Irrigation**: avoided partly out of respect for a friend's irrigation company (perceived conflict of interest, though friend never objected); would hire a 20-year irrigation veteran "if anyone's watching"; currently refers irrigation leads to friend's company **for nothing** in return. - Notes irony: friend's company started doing irrigation/overseeding, now competing on Christian's turf — "kind of bums me out, but it's okay." - **Home services division**: painting, handyman, gutter cleaning — all **recurring plans only** (minimum three visits; turns away one-time jobs). - **Mosquito/flea/tick**: added after reading industry magazines on margins and seeing TruGreen market it; same trucks/rigs, licensed technicians; admits market is **saturated** and he puts **virtually no marketing dollars** into cross-selling it — not a priority, not claiming strategy beyond that. ### A la Carte Model (vs. Bundling) - No tiered plans ("gold plan/silver plan"); services are **à la carte, like a high-end steakhouse**; open-ended, cancel anytime, renews in perpetuity. - Reasoning via the **"customer lens"**: customers like flexibility and choice; bundling risks resentment ("bamboozled") and total cancellation over one unwanted service. - Acknowledges bundling's merits (reduces choice anxiety) — holds both views. - Discusses a friend/competitor with a **minimum spend threshold**: respects the boldness, suspects solid margins, but believes it limits scalability and sends a "you're not good enough for us" message he dislikes. - Positions pricing as **efficient rather than most expensive** — customers expect premium but find prices "right in there"; route density is the competitive advantage. ### Branding (Dan Antonelli / KickCharge) - Engaged Dan ~10–12 years ago, pre-rebrand era ("GraphicDesign... was horrible" as a name). - Old mascot logo (mascot pushing mower, "Elroy Jetson"-style) was too **masculine**; research showed **many decision-makers among prospective clients are women**, so logo was softened (the flower) to speak to that clientele. - Dan tried to talk him out of **black trucks** ("color of death"); Christian refused — black and tan is "our thing"; notes irony that Dan's own rebrand now uses black and yellow. ### Work-Life & Leadership - Started **27 years ago** with his dad's Craftsman mower, knocking on doors; no business plan, just extra cash; partnered with a high school friend (the "numbers guy" to his "people guy"), later bought him out; credits friend as instrumental. - Now works ~**25–30 hours/week from home**; emphasizes quality of life after missing much of his two daughters' growing-up years ("I can't get that time back"). - Self-aware qualification: **"dangerously close" to being not present enough**; field staff's perception is reality, so he makes unannounced job-site visits (5–10 minutes, not to inspect quality, just presence). - Credits his team's ability to run operations without him; they **prefer he not get involved** in escalations. ### On Learning Leadership - No MBA or degrees; left college early. - Attributes team-building to upbringing: **strong family ties, authenticity, openness** from his mother and grandparents — not a plan, just who he is; hopes staff feel that genuine, honest relationship. - Qualification: **"You either have that or you don't"** — it can be improved, but if you're not that person, run the business behind the scenes and empower a front-facing person. --- ## Qualifications & Unresolved Tensions (Preserved) - Christian repeatedly hedges with "I'm not bragging, I'm just telling how it is" (client care staffing, mosquito cross-selling, hours worked). - Tension between **impersonal front-end sales** (no contact, 24-hr quotes) and his stated customer-lens philosophy — he acknowledges both sides. - Tension between **presence and delegation** — admits backing off "a little too much." - Simultaneous respect for and rejection of a competitor's **minimum-threshold model**, and for bundling generally. - Direct mail ROI explicitly **unquantifiable** in his telling. - Landscape lighting/irrigation expansion framed as opportunity he **hasn't pursued and isn't actively pursuing**. # Speaker Attribution & Provenance Record **Video:** Client Care, A la Carte Services, & Beyond: A Formula for Happy Homeowners | #NALP2024 #TeamBuilding **Video ID:** 01a168c8-26c4-75a5-9370-9ec4c1b3c299 ## Speakers & Roles ### Paul Jamore — **Host / Channel Creator** - Opens and closes the video; welcomes new subscribers to the channel. - Self-identifies: *"hi I'm Paul jamore I wanted to welcome our new subscribers to the channel."* - Conducts the main interview, asking nearly all questions. ### Christian — **Guest / Interviewee** - Business owner of a residential landscape company in Northern Virginia / DC Metro Area (company name referenced as "Kingstown" once in passing). - Latvian heritage; first name is a "relatively common name in Latvia." - Provides all substantive business content: company history, service mix, staffing, marketing, branding, team culture. ### Dylan — **Referenced, Not Present** - Mentioned by Paul as a collaborator for future M&A master class content; does not speak in this video. ## Promotional Segments (Flagged) - **Channel intro (Paul Jamore):** Promotion of subscriber growth, upcoming "M&A master classes" (sell-side and buy-side) prompted by LinkedIn requests after the "CIDE M&A master class" publication. - **Call-to-actions:** Subscribe link below, email distribution list signup link in description, comment solicitation. ## Referenced Third Parties & Sources (Per Transcript) - **Angie's List / Angie** — former lead-gen spend (~"$75 grand a year at peak"), cited by Christian. - **Dan Antonelli / KickCharge (formerly "Graphic Destructive"-era branding firm)** — branding consultant; rebranding work ~10–12 years ago; company name in transcript garbled. - **TrueGreen** — named as a larger competitor marketing mosquito/flea/tick services. - **"Joe"** — friend/former co-owner of a local irrigation company; lead referral relationship described. - **Marketing firm** — unnamed, hired to reduce and refocus Christian's marketing spend. - **NALP 2024** — referenced via title hashtag only; no in-transcript attribution. - **Industry magazines** — unnamed, cited as the source for pest-service margin claims. ## Third-Party Claims (Uncorroborated in Source) - Commercial competitors allegedly underbid HOA contracts and omit contracted services hoping clients won't notice (guest's characterization). - Local competitor's minimum-threshold pricing model limits scalability but likely supports margins (guest's speculation). - Majority of prospective-client decision-makers are women (based on the guest's and branding firm's internal research; no external data cited). ## Comment Availability & Metadata Limits - **No curated metadata supplied** beyond the video title. - Comments: host invites viewer comments ("put a comment below"); actual comment availability is **not confirmed** in the provided material. - **Uncertainty:** Guest's company name is only partially recoverable ("Kingstown"); branding firm's former name is garbled in the transcript. the decision I made was why are we going to take less on a commercial job just because it has a larger dollar amount associated with it it's a $100,000 contract as opposed to the $1,500 contract over here I'd rather just get a lot more of the smaller more profitable contracts and that is what we've done hi I'm Paul jamore I wanted to welcome our new subscribers to the channel you know historically pomac TV has been focused on business and operational information and interviews for residential and Commercial Services business business owners but after the publication of the cide m&a master class last month my LinkedIn inbox has been inundated with a variety of different requests so Dylan and I will be sitting down filming more extensive m&a master classes both focusing on the sell side as well as the buy side I intend to talk about the choice of process delving deep into m&a psychology uh as well as extensive buide practice approach and due diligence for those of you who have not subscribed you can click below and subscribe to the channel furthermore we've provided a link here in the description where you can get on our email distribution list and if you do that you'll receive an email right in your inbox with our latest Publications feel free to put a comment below on the types of things you want to see I mean this channel is largely driven by you the viewer and what you want to see from us again thanks for joining us here at patomic TV Christian great to see you today thanks for joining us my pleasure appreciate the invitation so let's start with the name your name would your mom drunk when she I mean yeah it it throws some people off I've I've uh it is uh latian both my parents are from laia a small country on the Baltic Sea used to be part of the sovet Union not by choice but uh and uh it is a relatively common name in laia believe it or not but yeah in the US no one can spell it right no no so it is it's a challenge and last name is a bit of a challenge too but you know it it makes things interesting so well good so what are you up to now you're in the DC Metro Area let's talk about your business yeah yeah in uh Northern Virginia uh DC Market um which Service uh mostly Fairfax County uh Arlington County um some of Prince William counties some of the you very fortunate some of the wealthiest uh counties per capita in the nation so uh and the density is um again we're fortunate to be in there I didn't this wasn't part of a business strategy years ago so fortunate to be in that area um so a lot of fair amount of disposable income with for our clients so although we provide a luxury essentially um you know grateful that that that area can sustain uh you know the luxury that that we provide so uh residential is our specialty residential maintenance we're about 70% residential maintenance and the rest is design build and and and a few other you know snow occasionally when it does snow things like that but we're almost exclusively residential which is somewhat unique for a company of our size um most companies that have you know scaled uh are are you know scaling with commercial work so um that is kind of our Niche and it's small residential we're not typically servicing the the big Estates uh we tend to have much more comp packed properties uh just a high volume of them in close proximity and that's kind of our wheelhouse and so how did you get started in the business um you know probably similar stories to to to some other uh business owners out there um went to uh so my first job uh in high school was at uh Mount buron Country Club and uh I wasn't a caddy I was on the grounds crew uh so um didn't think that would be a a a a a training for a career at the time it was just a fun job and an uh ability or opportunity to play golf uh uh Monday through Thursday they didn't allow us to play on Fridays but uh and um went to college for two years played football uh joined the fraternity drank a lot of beer uh didn't study much uh and so after two years came home feeling sorry for myself quite frankly uh and having uh not uh performed very well at school and um licking my wounds and the only thing I really knew how to do at the time was was uh Grounds Maintenance so I I literally took my my dad's Craftsman uh lawnmower and started knocking on doors around the the neighborhood and asking if folks needed work done around the the yard I it was literally that that uh basic of a start not not a business plan it was really just extra cash was what I was looking for uh so yeah and that was 27 years ago and so when you started this it was just you yes and so what was the trajectory of growth I mean how long did you do this as a solo operator well I I I short quickly brought on a uh a friend from from high school who was um we were buddies we played football together uh and the two of us he uh grew the business for several years um for actually for the first two almost three years it was just the two of us um and essentially it eventually became our full-time jobs but I was I was bartending and waiting tables to pay the the bills so it was um it was all every dime we made went right back into the company um and and then um so fast forwarding I did have a business partner and ended up buying him out a few years later so so yeah I just wanted to clarify that we we we were business partners for a while in the beginning and he was an instrumental part of of the business he had more of a he was more of a numbers guy I'm really not a a numbers guy I'm I'm more of the people guy if you will uh and so so um it was a good team uh for for the time that it lasted but and how big is your team how big is your team now yeah we have um about 85 employees total um of that uh roughly 60 or so maybe our production staff boots on the ground in the field uh and then the rest are account managers our version of account manager or our definition of account manager is um it's sales uh so it's not as traditional account manager as a lot of landscape companies uh they are providing customer service but their objective is to take those leads that are coming in uh bid those leads uh and and obviously close them or sell them the best they can but they also handle quite a bit of of uh customer service as well and then we have a pretty robust uh client care I like to say client care I think customer service has more of an ordinary sort of connotation to it so we call it client care our client care team um in fact so much so that I've had over the years a few Consultants come in and and comment you know uh to gee what are all these people doing here there's a lot of people sitting around you know not not generating Revenue but it is part of our sort of our secret sauce is is is as cliche as it sounds um have you know striving to really optimize that client experience so and that is that is part of what we try and you know differentiate ourselves I know there are a lot of companies that claim to do that and some are very successful but you have to have you know staff obviously in order to provide that so it's not just a bot or a answering machine and all that sort of thing and that obviously a lot of smaller companies struggle with that immensely so does each client get a dedicated client Care Rep no technically no uh that is a little bit different than what a lot of companies do um so our account managers have assigned zip codes so if you uh for example we're on our website filled out a form and we're interested in certain maintenance services and you a zip code that of course is within our service area um that would immediately be sign assigned to the corresponding account manager um and then he uh or she would would would be the one that starts communicating with you now one thing that we do a little bit differently too uh is we're not actually meeting with the majority of these customers which sounds a little strange I think and I'm not bragging it's just kind of what works for us we're in a very Urban suburban area very densely populated um I think for the most part many of our clients are very busy uh don't have a lot of extra time um and are not again this is my take on it but they're not as interested in walking their property for an hour or two with the local landscaper um and so we we although it's not as personal on the front end we're we're trying to we're trying to get that information to you very accurately and it's not from our desk either we're actually walking your property uh generally you're not there or you're not required to be there uh and uh and then that that uh estimates in your in your inbox within you know a matter of of hours so so if I did a if I did a web form somebody would contact me and I'd be off on my day one of your team members would go over to my place take a look around and put together a proposal if you filled out a web form you actually more than likely wouldn't even be contacted the next thing you would receive is that that customized contract uh in your you know in your inbox with you know our objective is 24 hours or less sometimes it's a lot less sometimes it could be a little bit longer obviously depending on on volume but um that's I mean yeah so I've had some critics say it's very it can be very impersonal and I think there's an argument to be made there that you know certainly we could theoretically increase our close ratios if it was more personal but I think there's a there's a happy medium between that and how much time uh our our client or prospective client in this case has has or is willing to to give you and let's say they're getting four or five quotes I mean I think that's a legitimate uh assumption um not that we want to you know be a commodity but do you think they're I mean I I just don't know if they're willing to meet with five different companies for I mean that's five or six hours of their yeah of their of their free time so that's kind of the way we look at it and then it's much more personal after they're onboarded that's our objective but so interesting and so you you you started as a pure planning maintenance business now you do design build as well how' you how'd you get into that yeah I think uh probably similar um to to um a lot of folks that are that are uh watching this um I I you know maintenance was obviously the lwh hanging fruit at the time it was what I knew how to do my comfort zone I did not know much about Landscaping in the very beginning um and um as any small company starts to grow and is uh having requests from clients about hey do you guys uh you know we're looking at a patio you guys know how to do that I mean this was a long time ago but I remember uh you know thinking uh we can figure it out of course that's probably not what I said to the client at the time I said yeah sure so I quickly realized that you know I'm not going to be the expert in everything and and it very clearly became you know a goal to surround myself at the time and then you know the company with experts in certain Fields right it sounds obvious but it's sort of like okay how can I on bring someone on board that that has some expertise in this area so that we can provide the service as opposed to me being the Jack of all trades and master of none certainly so so on the maintenance side of course you have the recurring Revenue aspect of it right once you sell the client ideally you keep them in perpetuity on the design build side it's a little bit more lumpy no yeah you know I agree I think there are a lot of companies that hang their hat on uh or maybe too heavily on um design build and there's some that are phenomenal at it and they're doing half a million dollar projects you know and that's that's their thing and that's that is not our thing we are capable of doing very large projects we do from time to time it's really not what we're going after though um so smaller design build projects um generally we're on the property a day several days at maximum probably in the5 to $30,000 range I would say Revenue wise is kind of our wheelhouse um so but we do some phenomenal work some larger projects we don't actively seek it as much um because I feel like there's a lot of competition there a lot of companies that are going after the big dollar amount and maybe some that maybe aren't their net isn't as attractive on those jobs as they would like for it to be and and and so um but about like I said 30% of our revenue is designed build and and that's we're comfortable there um that's a healthy place to be in my opinion because uh maintenance although it's not as sexy I guess um all the before and afters that people get all excited about you know I think a lot of times they get people get enamored with that and look at this awesome project we love that we're very proud of that but that's really not at the end of the day what pays our bills maintenance is what pays our bills obviously that recurring revenue is is our sweet spot and so we we don't take that for granted and we don't you know yeah I mean it used years ago it's funny I used to have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder and I think a lot of you know a lot of landscapers or you know contractors in general that is certainly started off small uh you know uh or had mud on their boots uh you know on a Saturday afternoon or what have you you know I used to hear from people oh you cut a lot of grass yeah we do cut a lot of grass we sure do and we're not we're not embarrassed to say that that is a you know a piece of the puzzle uh and I would say mowing in general is probably not the most profitable service in the world but it's a Gateway for us to other services that certainly have higher higher margins so and where do you see more competitive pricing pressure on the maintenance side or the design build side maintenance I think so yeah because I think it's more it can be perceived more as a commodity you know it's like oh you know anybody can cut grass lower barriers entry so to speak right exactly so that certainly is the case um ton of pressure on design build I I will say though that that is although we just talked about sort of the um somewhat lack lack of uh that Personal Touch in the beginning which is somewhat intentional on our part on the maintenance side the landscape side is very different so it's very personal from the very beginning and there's hopefully there's Rapport there between a landscape designer and the client so price uh although it's always important I don't think that generally speaking the client isn't as focused on price because it's rarely an Apples to Apples comparison it's like you know oh well they're cheaper compared to what and then if once you start looking at it's like well here are all the differences you know um so and whereas maintenance there are differences but they're not as tangible to the to the client I think you know that makes perfect sense you know you focused on the residential Market why have you stayed away from commercial or not really developed that thesis so much yeah you know it's interesting it's been sort of organic um it's not like we ever had this you know there was a time where we would bid commercial job uh projects um mostly on the maintenance side um and we found that we were almost never competitive and when I say not competitive I mean like 20 30% higher than other biders and to the point where we were getting feedback from property managers and HOAs like wh why are you guys so much more expensive and what we came to realize again this is years ago but what we came to realize is that our margins on residential were such that we we could not we could not bid those commercial jobs with the same uh pricing structure and so so the decision I made was why are we going to take less on a commercial job just because it has a larger dollar amount associated with it it's a $100,000 contract as opposed to the $1,500 contract over here I'd rather just get a lot more of the smaller more profitable uh contracts um and and that is what we've done uh because mainly as simple as it sounds we're just never competitive on Commercial and the only commercial that we have or through relationships that we have with homeowners within those HOAs or or the and and that have had really bad experiences with larger commercial companies that have underbid and and then not provided all the services that are maybe listed on the contract with hopes that they're not going to notice and they've come to us and said look we know you guys are more but it's worth it you guys service most of our of our homeowners here and we've seen what you guys do but I mean good luck you know scaling that that's that's those are those are outliers so yeah especially in the markets that you're in from a competitive perspective on the commercial side those guys just drive the price down yeah they do with the goal of course being to enhance or upsell later and I I appreciate that that objective and that um that way of doing business it's not the way I like to have some someone do business with me I'd rather you just be very upfront and say this is what you need this is what it's going to cost um and then let me make my decision as opposed to hey uh I'm going to give you the you know the inferior package here I'm going to tell you that and then you know hopefully before you're unhappy you know I'm going to say hey oh by the way these are all the other things you need and uh you know I it's very commonplace in our Market um in our industry yeah but it's I don't subscribe to that I don't like to be treated that way so uh and and perhaps we do lose some business because of that but I'm okay with that that's a great way to do it um how have you scaled that business in recent years from maybe an advertising marketing perspective yeah you know so our you know I've I've had people say we're a bit of a unicorn uh in our you know in in certainly in in our Market but in the industry because of the the the the amount of Revenue that we that we do on the small residential side which is pretty unusual and and so you know having people say that and thinking about that uh you know has has made me sort of you know look back and say okay how did because it you know yeah I can sit here and say oh this I always we meant to do this this plan from you know that's not the case I mean I I I there's been some we we've had some luck as well and and you know yeah obviously made some good decisions along the way not doing commercial I think has been a good decision for us it just didn't fit us it's a totally different totally different animal and different pricing structure so and not doing large residential we do have some but it's almost like they're small commercial projects and we're borderline pricewise some folks are willing to pay a little bit more but there are 10 companies behind us that are willing to do it for less and some of which probably will do a fine job but you know they're what they're getting per manh hour is significantly less than what we need to charge um and so what we've what I found is that the administrative burden on that we have is is is enormous because let's roughly 4,000 active maintenance customers within 8 miles of our office right it's pretty pretty unusual so on any given day any one of those 4,000 customers can email us call us text us uh you know so then those are just current clients that that's not the prospective landscape customers so I mean imagine the the as I mentioned the robust client care team that we have well we have to have that otherwise we're we're providing inferior service and there's a cost to that right I mean so and if we're baking that cost into what we need to charge and then we you know a commercial contract is $500,000 and imagine the amount of customers on the small residential side that we need to have in order to generate $500,000 worth of Revenue I a heck of a lot more whereas you could have one or two points of contact on the commercial side and we could have 500 on the on the on the residential side so it's just not Apples to Apples so we just continue to to to and it's really it's been a sort of street by Street Pond Ripple sort of organic growth we've never acquired uh another company never bought anyone's customer list um and just as simple as it sounds route density I mean it it it's and I think that almost to the point now where people are probably tired of seeing our trucks it's like he these guys are everywhere we get that a lot where it's like I mean you guys are doing the HOA right well no no no we just handle like 30 houses in the neighborhood so but it sounds like you're the guy that actually understands you know you kind of understood Ral dudy from the get-go like a lot of guys want to grow their fif they want to make it huge right like cover this multi-state area um and you're like no I'm going to do a tiny area and I'm going to own it yes so you have probably number one market share on the residential side I guess in your very small service area yes and it is definitely a key to our success and ultimately profitability certainly is a big key you know you always hear oh yeah windshield time load and unload and all those sorts of things that that compounds obviously as you know as you have a larger service area it compounds and and if you're not working that into your price if you are you're probably not competitive and if you're not you're just it's just basically you know coming right off the bottom right you know and so uh and then you're spending a heck of a lot more money to Market those areas because you're trying to you know to grow those areas and that's coming right out of the bottom line so yeah I mean we've never done it that way um and never felt like we had to but I I me know there's some Merit to that I understand that maybe with some private Equity money that where that happens but yeah it's all been organic for us so save for digital marketing what are some other marketing things that you do in that finite geography yeah so we you know years ago the landscape has changed so much uh from a marketing standpoint um it was you remember Angie's List I think they're still around Angie they've rebranded as Angie um I'm I don't know if I'm embarrassed but I I I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that at our Peak I think we were spending like I don't know 75 grand a year just with them and then tons of direct mail marketing which is extremely expensive it can be effective very expensive um and uh a ton of Google paperclick this was sort of before we brought on a marketing firm firm you know when I was sort of handling it myself thought I knew what I was doing it was working I just didn't know what was working and how much of it was working right so just throwing a bunch of money at it and yeah it's working but maybe we could spend half of that and still do just as well yeah so the marketing firm came in uh they're terrific uh and and and sort of said hey why don't we pump the brakes on all the stuff that you're doing focus on on your on your on your branding focus on instead of always is looking at new customers you know adding services to your current customers these are obvious things certainly I'm just talking about in the very beginning where it was maybe not obvious uh and and now it is very obvious so we've reduced our marketing budget um it's about a third of what it was at its peak and last year was our we had the highest revenue we've ever had so that's a good Trend marketing spend down revenue and profitability up I can't I'm not going to I hope we do that every year but it's it's you know it is is working currently do you still do direct mail I do actually believe it or not I know it's somewhat uh Antiquated and it is very expensive maybe that's why it works I I think that it's bigger Bolder flasher than it used to be um so we we we go with like full page uh you know in your mailbox Standalone it's not stuffed in something else or folded into some newspaper so they're expensive but we're targeting very specific neighborhoods and very spe specific clientele and it's a very captive audience so instead of sending 10,000 out to you know three zip codes it would be maybe 1,000 to very very targeted very specific uh clients that we're looking to you know to to uh to bring on board so I you know I don't I question it's hard to quantify how much return what our return on investment is on that but like anything you know marketing the old adages is you know how many times does a customer have to see your logo or your brand and you know your truck drive by the mailer that they received the the you know you're popping up as a sponsored you know on Google paperclick at what point you know yeah it all is part of the equation obviously so we have yeah you know consider considering you're in such a tight geography have you ever done door-to-door sales uh no I I we haven't and the only reason I can tell you why we haven't is um I don't like to do that personally and I I just am not comfortable asking anyone else on my team to do that do something that I wouldn't really want to do myself also looking through the client lens and it's sort of my unique client lens which may be a little more skewed than the standard client I just don't like it when people show up at my door and knock on the door unannounced and I don't know who they are I don't like that feeling I feel like it's a little bit of an invasion of privacy I know it can be effective we don't do it because I don't like to be the person that's in the house that's talking to someone that's trying to sell me a roof and I'm like who are you what company you with I you know I know you can tell maybe I do need a roof but I'm just not not interested in talking of course now we have a ring camera and I don't even answer those so yeah so yeah you know I got to wonder in your metro area any of your competitors use door to-door sales they probably do they probably do uh we see it a lot obviously Roofing and Siding it's it's popular with those businesses a little bit of hbac uh pest I've seen a fair amount of pest we do some pest perimeter Pest and exterior I wouldn't say we're Pest Control CU we don't come in the house but um uh but it's generally the much larger companies that are you know canvasing and they're not even the people that are doing it don't even work for the company they're just yeah outsourc you know outsourced yeah so I don't know I mean I think that works uh to an extent but that's you talk about commoditizing that's a commodity is I mean there's no what what Rapport are you building with that person that's coming to your door that doesn't even work for the company none zero so it it's all price at that point I would assume and so I don't know if if that's that's not really the client that we're typically the demograph traffic that we're going after so you've made a wise move sticking with your knitting on the residential side you've got a couple service lines you are doing some perimeter pest have you thought about going deeper into other ancillary services in the future other services in general or P specific pest or lawn care or any other yeah I have I have um couple of things that come to mind we do some landscape lighting but it's always an enhancement to an exist project that we're working on right so if someone's spending 30 grand on a patio you know I think it's generally a pretty logical transition for the designer to say hey for an extra three four $5,000 we can really take this to to the next level and you can really enjoy this in the evening and not need the flood lights on like you're you know got a spotlight on you um and and that's that's easy and most people are like yeah heck yeah let's do that um but we don't Market land landscape lighting we're very good at at it there's pretty darn good margin on landscape lighting um I I feel like I feel like we could do a lot more landscape lighting if we really pushed it I say push it if we really let folks know that that's something that we specialize in um that's one irrigation is another one would you on the landscape lighting then would you do that on a standalone basis when you're not involved in a design build project you would look and say hey this is a lot this is your are we can to light up I think I can imagine a scenario where we're doing where first of all letting prospective clients know that we do it I mean it's on our website but you really got to look for it it's like I said it's more of the designer suggesting it you're already a client of ours and and we rarely get a lead for landscape lighting only there's plenty of folks out there that are in that market and that are looking for that uh they're not finding us but we're not looking for them either yet so I think the way I imagine it is it gets to the point if we do that we have someone that specializes in landscape lighting that then handles those those those leads specifically and same Crews that that do it now I mean we we can install that's not a problem we're very good at that so I think that would be just because the margins are are pretty attractive uh on that I think that's something that would and and irrigation I have a a good friend that's was in irrigation for a long time built one of the most recognizable landscap or irrigation companies in our Market he he has since sold his share ownership share of the company his half I believe it was and um it used to to me feel like it was a bit of a conflict of interest to do irrigation because of my friendship with him he never said that but I respect to the guy I'm like I don't want to compete with my friends uh even if there's enough work for all of us but I feel like if someone were to walk in the door and say hey this I've got you know 20 years of irrigation experience and I'm tired of the Rat Race and doing this thing and I'd love to again I haven't been actively looking for that person but if anyone's watching that that that wants to is in the DC area or wants to be and and is and and knows irrigation I feel like I feel like we could again we have 4,000 active customers so just think about is without spending one marketing dollar I mean how many of those folks need or want irrigation you know how many how many quite a bit we send irrigation leads to our same company a friend that he's no he's still involved in the company he's just not an owner and uh I mean the amount of leads we send them it's astronomical and that's the only company we refer we get nothing for it other than just knowing that they're in good hands with a quality company so do they send you Landscape Maintenance leads I believe they do I mean I don't I don't see them and I'm not sure we can track that but they do I know they do the irony is they just started doing Iration and over seating as a way to keep their Crews busy which is one of our services and he when they did that before he before Joe was his name before he left he he called me he said hey yeah I know we're going to be technically competing with you guys but this is something that makes sense for us I said do your thing Joe so we've had some of our clients that have that company doing their Iration over seating which kind of bums me out but yeah it's okay in addition to irrigation um and landscape lighting what other services you you potentially think about yeah so we have a home Home Services Division and I know Home Services could cover a lot of basis and it is somewhat ambiguous as to what is Home Services our definition of Home Services is I was my original thought was handyman but it's you know handyman is kind of kind of cheapens the you know the sort of the uh perception of what it is you're rece saving you know just a guy with a tool tool bag that just can do a little bit of everything um so it's a lot more than that um painting uh certainly handyman services uh gutter cleaning actually we do quite a bit of and that's a nice add-on for for us um and but these are plans one of the things that we do I know we hadn't really talked about this but none of this onetime stuff I mean for us everything's recurring so if you want gutter cleaning or if you're interested in that yeah we may lose you as a perspective respective customer if you just need it done once you know the answer is going to be unfortunate we can't do that it's going to be a plan and you're signing up for that plan it's a minimum of three visits and that's just the way it is and you know most people are are okay with that so gutter cleaning has been solid for us it's a nice add-on um in regards to any other services uh we do mosquito fle and tick um that's that's that's easy for us to do it's a it's a logical transition from you know the the the grounds maintenance that we're doing we just really I think it would make sense for us to go in the house and really do full-blown pest again I I'm not comfortable with the level of uh knowledge and knowhow and experience that we have in order to do that and I think as soon as you set foot inside someone's house things change potentially there's a lot more liability a lot more room for hey this uh my you know my ring is missing or whatever you know and and we have a phenomenal staff but I mean you know it's a whole another level of liability in my in my opinion and so I I really prefer not to cross the uh that threshold I like it how did you get into fle or tick and bosquito is it customers said hey you guys do this and you thought well we should or I think it was act actually my recollection is reading uh industry magazines uh boasting about profit margins on that particular type of service and then starting to see larger companies like a true green for example marketing out there that they're doing it I'm thinking why the heck aren't we doing this we have Lawn Care technicians they have all the licenses and uh and and uh credentials that they need in order to do this uh and and this makes perfect sense so it was an easy add-on for us as we use the same trucks uh same spray rigs for the most part um and so that's been that's been great um I think the Market's pretty saturated now pretty much every landscape company that has you know a technition of some sort doing Lawn Care is is is offering similar services so I'm not sure about growth potential necessarily but again we don't we put virtually no marketing dollars into that if we really wanted to go for it I think we could but I I haven't I haven't I haven't it's all current clients that are just sort of you know they see it on the contract and they go oh I didn't know you guys do that cool well well we'll do that too so you're not even really actively cross- selling it I'm not bragging I'm just telling how it is I'm just curious as to why you're not um yeah I haven't made it a priority I mean just in all cander I'm not saying I don't want it to be a priority but we do have a pretty s pretty healthy menu of services that we offer um one of the things we're talking about unique and we we're all a cart are so we don't we don't have like you know plan a plan B the gold plan the silver plan I there there's Merit to that I get that but ours um our maintenance services are more like a like a high-end Steakhouse kind of I maybe that's a bad analogy because it means expensive but it's it's sort of like okay I came here for the steak and you know these sides and this s those are all all the cart if you want them great or you just order the steak have a glass of water if you want I mean that's unusual but sure um so that's kind of how we do it uh and and they people can cancel at any time there's no we're not locking you into a term it's open-ended but it also renews in perpetuity which is is kind of nice so why have you gone that rout I I mean I think it's a great way to do it allart everyone nowadays is into bundling right yep and sometimes the problem though that I see with bundling is if somebody's got three services from you and one of them they don't care about or just like why am I paying for it they'll just cancel everything absolutely absolutely or they didn't fully understand what it is they were signing up for and then there's some almost some animosity or some sort of resentment like what they've been bamboozled yeah I didn't that's not what I even signed up for but you you strong armed me into it so um I think although I think you can there is benefit to to bundling because I think it does kind of reduce some confusion or anxiety from a client like wow all these choices and I don't know what to pick and I get that so there there we have to be cognizant of that but I do and we talked about this already seeing things through the customer lens it's really really important to me and I've made it really important for my staff to try and see things through the customer lens and I think most customers like flexibility they like choice they like to be able to just sort of pick and choose what they want uh and not feel forced to go with something just because that's what we offer now we have a competitor uh local business he's a great guy we're friends um and he made a decision a few years ago to go with you know there's this minimum threshold in order if you want to be a maintenance customer this is the minimum threshold we're not just going to mow your lawn or we're not just going to you you know uh prun your shrubs a couple times a year this is the minimum threshold it was a bold move for him um and and I think he's happy with that um I think it's limiting his upward Mobility his scalability a little bit but I bet you their margins are are pretty solid so um I don't I don't like that as much because I think again looking through the customer lens I feel like it's sort of like well you know yeah you're you're not good enough for us you know sorry we have minimum we have a minimum you know you know you don't want to spend enough to be our c customer I don't know I don't like that message that it sends you know even though we have a kind of a glossy slick image and um we're we're we're pretty pretty flexible and pretty reasonably priced when people get down to it like wow you guys you know I seem like you guys are going to be the most expensive but you're right in there and that's great we're happy with that and and I think what we do instead of trying to be the most expensive we're we're making up you know on the backside being much more efficient from the route density we talked about um and and that's our competitive advantage so when did you guys get Dan involved in your branding yeah Dan Antonelli a super talented guy um this was before he had rebranded it's currently kick charge it used to be graphic design was horrible which was hor it was it was I I I'm a partner in a business and we used him back in 2017 okay 2016 I think and it was graphic design and I told Dan I'm like you know for your branding capabilities this is absurd yes yeah did not roll off the tongue so um and they've experienced tremendous grow growth in the last few years and and I'm happy for him he's a he's a good guy Savvy uh marketing uh guy and and has assembled a great team around him which you know I think you know i' I've done some similar things to where it makes him look good but he's got a great very capable team around him so I um reached out to Dan uh gosh it was at least 10 years ago it might have been longer maybe 12 years ago um before he really became sort of the the the larger marketing firm that that they are now and uh I realized at the time that our logo was kind of stale and and we had a we had black trucks and we had the black and tan that our color combo uh which is somewhat unique already uh and but I just didn't feel like it had enough of a of a it didn't send enough of a message and I wanted to freshen it up uh the website was a piece of that so he came back and his team came back which I thought was interesting at the time and and it seems obvious now but at the time it didn't really occur to us and he said okay so we used to have it was so this is Mo okay sort of like I don't know Elroy Jetson or Bob's Big Boy similar kind of thing right yeah I I remember the Mexican commenting on it earlier today right right so they came back and they said hey you've got this guy he's like pushing a lawnmower and he looks like he's all upset you know and getting his job done he's really dialed in this is it's very masculine it's very um it doesn't speak to maybe the core clientele that and and so they asked us a lot of questions we did a lot of research and we found that a lot of our a lot of decision makers as to who was well let me walk it back prospective client that is looking for landscape company or lawn care company uh and how what how they're making that decision as to hey I'm going to click on this link I'm going to fill out this form and that might be three to five companies what we found is many of those prospective clients are with women like more than men so that already is I mean so we wanted to speak to perspective clients and soften up the image to where it's not this like big muscular guy that's like yeah we're M that gross you know it's like you see those p and all that women would like that yeah right and it's like very you know masculine and we feel like you know cool that we're you know that's on the side of our truck but so the idea of the flower as simple as it may seem in he's very friendly and happy was to speak to to our ladies that were interested that were deciding hey I like Kingstown and they're you know and why they like Kingstown so that was that sounds very simple but that was really the Genesis of it and he actually tried to talk me out of the black he said it was the color of death and and ironically he's rebranded and now his colors are are similar black and yellow so so but he's not in the green industry so but uh I I love Dan that's not a shot at him but I was adamant about sticking with the black and and that's our thing so uh it's a little more popular now than it used to be but it used to be just green and white you know or some variation obviously so uh for most companies well you know you've really built something special there in the DC market and after all these Decades of toiling in the landscape Vineyards what's your day-to-day look like now for you yeah yeah it has changed significantly I can imagine um I'm almost embarrassed to admit um I you know like a lot of you know business owners that started from you know the very very beginning and bootstrapped it um there a lot of long days and long weeks and long years um I have uh two adult children Now 23 and 20-y old daughters um missed a lot of their you know growing up quite frankly putting in a lot of long hours over the years and um not really realizing that that's what was happening during while it was happening and then now looking back it's like man I can't get that time back so um so you decided to have more children well I'd have to reverse a certain procedure but yeah all right or be the the mailman I don't know but anyway sorry bad joke um so anyway long story short yeah my my I so I've put a lot more of an emphasis on quality of life now um even though I can't go back in time and get the you know the those those adolescent years back from my my daughters and all but um I I do I work mostly from home now um I have a home office with an awesome view of you know the beautiful landscape I know a good landscaper in town so uh and um probably about 25 30 hours a week or so uh mostly from my you know from my home office um I I'm not I'm not bragging you asked the question and I am I think I'm dangerously close to being maybe not as involved as I should be I'm very involved everyone knows I'm involved but I mean physically present because there is yeah in many cases I think their perception is reality and if and I mean staff like you know boots on the ground production staff if they haven't seen me for weeks which is not uncommon it you know I think sometimes their mind can run wild a little bit and say well is he still involved in the business is he still here is he sick I me you know so I I have to be cognizant of that and and just you know occasionally I'll just show up on a job site completely unannounced uh and it's like hey you know and and everybody's super happy I'm not trying to find anything wrong with the quality of the work I'm just there to to be present even if it's for 5 or 10 minutes so I've been doing a little bit more of that because I think I actually probably backed off a little too much uh and that's a testimonial of my team I mean I'm phenomenal team where if I'm not there for weeks on end I wouldn't say nobody notices but it's okay there's no I'm not answering three cell phones and and putting out fires and meeting with angry clients used to do that did that a lot but have a phenomenal team now uh that can handle that and prefer I not get involved because you know sometimes yeah it it it might make them uncomfortable when I get involved so I think it's it's kind of a you know it's a mutually beneficial uh business relationship now with the with the team so I guess in closing I wanted to ask you you know how did you learn these skills to recruit attract manage these great teams yeah you know it's it it's all been on the job um as I mentioned I uh love left college early um and was never a great student to begin with um I don't have any um you know MBA or uh you know fancy degrees um so what I would say is that this is going to sound corny but um really really strong family ties um and lots of love affection and support from my mother my grand grandparents growing up and very lots of authenticity very open um uh genuine relationship right with with my mother and her parents growing up again this is looking way back right I didn't know it at the time it's just that's just normal so has and that's the way I grew up be being that person being you know genuine authentic maybe sometimes a little too open you know a little too candid um and then realizing okay maybe that's a little more than people really want to hear want know but I've I think again I'm not saying this was a plan it's just this is the way it's happened um I think that I hope that most of my staff feel similar even though it's a business relationship but that that they have that sort of relationship with me where we're just open and honest with each other I appreciate them I respect them I'm genuine I'm authentic because that's way I am or at least aspire to be as much as I can I'm not perfect but um and I think that more than anything is has been the key to to building a phenomenal team but you either have that or you don't I agree you can work on it you can improve it but if you're not that person that doesn't mean you can't run a great business but you probably want to have someone else out front that is that person and just keep them really happy and Empower them and then be behind the scenes if you're the numbers guy crunch the numbers and that's that's okay but thankfully that that's where I was raised and so it's it's um resonated with my staff and my team um and I'm very very very grateful for that that's awesome well listen I appreciate you joining me today I appreciate you listening to all my die tribes absolutely great stories my pleasure thanks Christian absolutely likewise you