Interview recorded at the NALP Elevate Conference 2024 in Charlotte, NC, exploring mergers and acquisitions strategies for scaling lawn care and pest control businesses. Paul Giannamore (The Potomac Company) speaks with Jordan Cano, Vice President of M&A at Senske Services, about Senske's approach to building a national platform while preserving local brands, employee-focused integrations, regional differences between lawn care and pest control markets, seasonality, competitive dynamics, private equity's role in service-industry consolidation (including GTCR's investment horizon), and Senske's 2025 growth plans. # Channel Identity Observations: POMAC TV ## Explicit Self-Description (Creator Claims) - **Channel name and stated history:** The host identifies himself as **Paul Jamison** (transcribed "Paul jamore") of **"Patomic TV / pomac TV."** > "historically pomac TV has been focused on business and operational information and interviews for residential and Commercial Services business owners" - **Stated expansion of scope:** After publishing a "sell-side M&A master class," the creator says demand drove new content: > "my LinkedIn inbox has been inundated with a variety of different requests so Dylan and I will be sitting down filming more extensive m&a master classes both focusing on the sell side as well as the buy side" - **Claimed audience-driven model:** > "this channel is largely driven by you the viewer and what you want to see from us" ## Intended Audience - **Owners of residential and commercial service businesses**, specifically lawn care and pest control operators, per the quoted self-description. - **Sellers/founders considering exit**, implied by the M&A master class framing ("providing you with an exit strategy" is the guest's line, but the host's framing targets sellers: "if I'm a seller is there anything that you can offer me"). - **Industry event context:** The title's hashtag **#NALP2024** (National Association of Landscape Professionals) suggests alignment with the lawn care industry trade community. ## Claimed Content Scope - Business/operational information and interviews for service business owners (historical claim). - New M&A education: "the choice of process," "m&a psychology," "extensive buy-side practice approach and due diligence" (stated plans). - Calls to action: subscribe link, email distribution list, comment-driven topic requests. ## Observable Presentation (Demonstrated Patterns) - **Long-form expert interview format:** The bulk of the video is a structured Q&A with a named guest (Jordan, M&A lead at Senske/"sensy"), covering rollup strategy, deal criteria, margins, retention, and seasonality. - **Host demonstrates domain fluency:** Paul asks informed, specific questions — e.g., referencing GTCR's Chicago office lineage ("my former bosses at American Capital came from the Chicago office of gtcr"), TrueGreen's historical Q1 acquisition bias, and geographic pricing dynamics — suggesting an established M&A/PE professional audience as well as operators. - **Educational orientation:** The host prompts guest explanations for lay viewers: > "for those folks who might not know what that means to roll Equity can you talk about what that might look like" and the guest defines EBITDA "for all the listeners there." - **Quantitative, benchmark-heavy discussion:** Content includes specific figures (20%+ EBITDA margins, 55–60% gross margin, ~10% growth benchmark, ~20% customer churn, 16 states, 16 acquisitions), demonstrating a data-oriented presentation style. ## Notes on Provenance and Limits - Speaker names are partially garbled in the transcript ("sensy" for Senske/Sensky family of companies, "Paul jamore"); exact spellings beyond the host's self-identification are not confirmed by the source. - The video references an interview recorded before/near 2025 ("we're coming up on 2025") with an event tie-in (#NALP2024), consistent with conference-adjacent content; no private motivations are stated beyond the quoted LinkedIn-response claim. # Delivery Observation: M&A Strategies for Lawn & Pest Industry Growth ## Overall Format - **Two-part structure**: an on-camera host welcome segment, followed by a Q&A interview between Paul (host) and Jordan (M&A lead at Senske). - The host drives nearly all questions; the guest delivers extended, conversational answers. - Brief transcript glitch near the end: `[1934]...[1965] you` — the final word appears orphaned; uncertainty about whether closing remarks were cut off. ## Tone - **Conversational and informal** on both sides: "so let's H let's get down to business," "I mean this channel is largely driven by you the viewer." - Guest tone is **enthusiastic and promotional** when discussing the platform: "it's been a blessing to see to be to be honest with you." - **Self-deprecating humor** appears once: "I like the beach too," and "they've done a much better job of my lawn than I ever did." ## Verbal Habits - **Heavy filler and repetition** by the guest, especially "you know" and "right": - "and and build and scale the business so" - "to to to build a best-in-class lawn care" - "right so um we you I guess uh to say" - **Repeated phrase "to be able to"** — appears dozens of times: "allows you to to be able to build a rollup strategy," "we like to be able to get uh grow down to to the Florida market." This is the guest's most stable verbal tic. - **"Best-in-class"** recurs as a signature term: "best-in-class lawn care," "best-in-class companies within their respective markets." - Frequent **"I would say"** as a hedging preface: "I would say our main focus right now," "I would say usually our investment is about 5 to six years." ## Teaching / Explanatory Habits - **Defines jargon for the audience** when prompted: - EBITDA: "earnings before interest taxes depreciation amortization just shows basically the true profitability of the business" - LOI: "the the LOI or letter of intent" - Explains equity rollover at the host's request. - **Quantifies with concrete numbers**: "$250 million in Revenue," "16 Acquisitions," "10% growth rate," "20% and above" EBITDA margin, "55 60%" gross profit, "seven for every 10" close rate. - **Frames trade-offs geographically** (North vs. Southeast, Florida) — responds to the host's structured prompts with structured comparisons. - Host habit of **signposting questions and acknowledging difficulty**: "I realize that's a difficult question," "and I'm asking a lot of questions but." ## Communication Patterns - **Hedging and refusal to overgeneralize**: "it it all depends right but," "to put a pin on what that looks like right in this market it's uh might make some people upset." - **Emphasis on transparency as a stated value**: "I'm not a Salesman I'm not looking to hide anything," "all cards are on the table." - Host **funnels from broad to specific** across the interview (background → strategy → metrics → personal anecdotes → closing initiatives) — a stable interview structure. - Guest repeatedly **redirects from absolutes to ranges**: "there's not again one main target," "every deal is unique... a deal is a deal." ## Uncertainty Notes - The repeated "you know"/"right" pattern is strongly evidenced; whether it reflects habit vs. transcription artifacts of filler words cannot be fully separated. - The guest's charm/team references ("all of our charm") occur once; not enough repetition to call it a pattern. # Position Extraction: M&A Strategies for Lawn & Pest Industry Growth ## Speakers - **Paul Giannamore (Paul Jamore)** — Host, Potomac TV - **Jordan** — Runs M&A at Senske (Sensy), joined via GTCR-backed platform ## Senske / GTCR Background (Jordan) - GTCR (private equity) acquired Senske in **December 2022**; Jordan, Casey Taylor, Nate Hulse, and Rob Thomas joined at that time from Waterlogic (a point-of-use water cooler rollup exited to Culligan). - Casey and Nate became CEOs; prior CEO Chris stepped down but remains on the board. - **16 acquisitions completed** since the platform acquisition; currently in **16 states plus Canada**. - Organic growth via **greenfielding** locations in certain markets. - Rebranded as the **"Senske family of companies"** — 10 brands; core operations in Kennewick, WA (spokane/Idaho/Utah/Colorado/Oregon expansion); missing two states for coast-to-coast presence. ## Strategic Positions ### Industry Fit - Jordan: lawn care is **highly fragmented**, allowing a rollup strategy similar to water; route-based business model; TrueGreen is "the national player" they aim to compete with. ### Brand Strategy - **Local brands retained** rather than a single national brand: acquired businesses have local brand recognition; "nobody knows who or what Senske is" in eastern markets. Some selective rebranding to platform brands does occur. ### Service Mix - Core focus is **pure lawn care** (recurring-revenue spray/fertilization), plus tree & shrub care and some pest control (two pure pest businesses acquired). Pest control is more rolled up already; lawn care is more fragmented. ### Acquisition Criteria - Wide range: from **~$500K revenue** (book-of-business deals) to **$25M revenue** platform businesses. - Key attributes: management team that survives seller departure, margin profile, size/scalability, organic growth. - Benchmarks (Jordan): - Attractive growth: **~10% top and bottom line** annually. - EBITDA margin: **20%+ attractive; 25–30%** for premier businesses; **<20%** suggests reevaluation. - Gross margin: **55–60%** average target. - Customer churn: **~20% is "standard"** in the industry; they'd like better. - Deal funnel: nearly **7 of 10** pipeline lawn care conversations close. Once an LOI is signed: **"we're closing 100% of them."** - Sellers can **roll equity** into the Senske family of companies. ### Geographic Nuances - **Southern markets**: 12-month seasons, highly competitive on pricing and acquisitions, easier for customers to leave; **retention is higher up north** due to less competition. - Not in Florida currently but not avoiding it; Florida skews toward landscape/mow/installs which they don't do. - Recently expanded into Georgia (Atlanta-based arborist business) and Texas (Emerald Lawn platform). - Acquired an entire franchise business across Canada (shortest season). ### Seasonality of M&A - Deal flow peaks **Q4/Q1**; Q2 is hard as operators launch the season. Unlike TrueGreen's historical Q1 bias, Senske acquires year-round and will hold businesses through winter ("we're here for the long term"). ### Investment Horizon & Targets - GTCR horizon: **5–7 years** to a liquidity event. - Original thesis: **~$250M revenue**, US-wide; Jordan claims they are ahead of expectations within the first two years. - Five-year vision: **35+ states**, "a true national provider of best-in-class lawn care with some of the best brands in the industry." ### Differentiation Claim - Jordan positions Senske as selective, employee-focused, transparent ("I'm not a salesman"), emphasizing seller vision alignment and meticulous, not-too-fast growth. ## Host Contributions (Paul) - Noted TrueGreen historically favored Q1 acquisitions to avoid winter carrying costs; raised questions on geographic pricing pressure, Florida competitiveness, and retention-by-geography. - Observed far more sponsor-backed lawn care businesses exist today than five years ago. - Announced upcoming M&A master class content (sell-side and buy-side) driven by viewer/LinkedIn demand. ## Qualifications & Tensions - Jordan repeatedly hedges target criteria: "there's not one main target," size "really varies," retention analysis "all depends." - Declined to disclose customer-retention specifics beyond the ~20% churn generalization ("might make some people upset"). - Retention generalizations are Jordan's own framing, offered as "pretty generalized what I've seen" — acknowledged tension with Paul's caveat that retention depends on service delivery. # Video Attribution & Provenance Record ## Video Identification - **Title:** M&A Strategies for Lawn & Pest Industry Growth | #MergersAndAcquisitions #PrivateEquity #NALP2024 - **Video ID:** `01a168c8-280f-77f6-b622-5ba6fa77c7a1` - **Format:** Interview/interview-format episode, appears to be from the "PotaMac TV" channel (transcript spelling varies: "pomac TV" / "patomic TV") ## Speakers & Roles ### Paul Giannamore (transcribed as "Paul jamore") — **Host / Channel Creator** - Self-introduces: *"hi I'm Paul jamore I wanted to welcome our new subscribers to the channel"* - Conducts the interview; positions himself as an M&A advisor (references a "sellside m&a master class" and former bosses at American Capital from the Chicago office of GTCR, "gold or TOA back then" — likely Golden/Swim; transcription uncertain) ### Jordan — **Guest, M&A lead at Senske (transcribed variously as "sensy"/"sensuke"/"sensy family of companies")** - Introduced by host: *"you're running m&a over at sensy"* - Background stated by guest: previously at **Waterlogic** (point-of-use water cooler rollup, exited to **Culligan**, transcribed as "colan"/"coligan"); joined Senske with **Casey Taylor, Nate Hurse (Hurst?), Rob Thomas** when **GTCR** (private equity) acquired Senske in **December 2022**; Casey and Nate became co-CEOs; Chris (former acting CEO) stepped down and remains on the board. ## Roles Summary | Speaker | Role | Evidence | |---|---|---| | Paul Giannamore | Creator / host / interviewer | Self-introduction, channel welcome | | Jordan (surname not stated in transcript) | Guest, corporate M&A executive | Host confirmation and guest's own account | ## Promotional Segments (Flagged) - **Channel promotion block** at open: subscription solicitation (*"click below and subscribe"*), email distribution list sign-up (*"link here in the description"*), request for viewer comments. - Reference to prior paid/series content: the **"sellside M&A master class"** publication and upcoming master class series with "Dylan" — promotional cross-reference for channel content. ## Referenced Third Parties & Sources (Speaker-Cited Only) - **GTCR** — private equity sponsor backing Senske (per guest) - **Waterlogic** and **Culligan** — guest's prior employer and acquirer - **Senske** platform and acquired/mentioned brands: Senske Services (Kennewick, WA HQ per guest), **Emerald Lawn** (Texas platform), an arborcare business in Atlanta/Georgia, a Canada-wide franchise acquisition - **TrueGreen** — cited by both host and guest as the national competitor - **American Capital / GTCR Chicago office** — host's personal career reference - Named individuals: Casey Taylor, Nate Hurse/Hurst, Rob Thomas, Chris (no surname), Dylan (unseen collaborator) ## Claims Provenance Notes - All business metrics (16 acquisitions, 16 states, ~$250M revenue target, EBITDA/gross margin benchmarks, ~7-in-10 close rate, 5–7 year horizon, Q4/Q1 seasonality) are **unverified guest statements** — no documents or third-party sources cited. - No curated metadata was supplied with this source material. ## Comment Availability - **Comments open and explicitly solicited:** *"feel free to put a comment below on the types of things you want to see"* — no restriction indicated. ## Uncertainty Flags - Guest's surname is **not stated** in the transcript ("Jordan" only). - Company and personal names show transcription variance ("sensy," "sensuke," "PotaMac/pomac TV," "colan/coligan," "Nate hurse," "gtcr") — canonical spellings unconfirmed. when you sit back and think like hey 5 years from now this is what this business is going to look like what does it look like in your mind what do I think it will end up being I think we will be 35 Plus States across the country and and be a true National provider of best-in-class lawn care with some of the best brands in the industry hi I'm Paul jamore I wanted to welcome our new subscribers to the channel you know historically pomac TV has been focused on business and operational information and interviews for residential and Commercial Services business owners but after the publication of the cellsite m&a master class last month my LinkedIn inbox has been inundated with a variety of different requests so Dylan and I will be sitting down filming more extensive m&a master classes both focusing on the sell side as well as the buy side I intend to talk about the choice of process delving deep into m&a psychology uh as well as extensive buide practice approach and due diligence for those of you who have not subscribed you can click below and subscribe to the channel furthermore we've provided a link here in the description where you can get on our email distribution list and if you do that you'll receive an email right in your inbox with our latest Publications feel free to put a comment below on the types of things you want to see I mean this channel is largely driven by you the viewer and what you want to see from us again thanks for joining us here at patomic TV Jordan thanks for joining me today thanks so much for having me Paul so let's H let's get down to business you're running m&a over at sensy I am I am yes sensy I think before we get into you let's do a little bit of background on sensy sure what are you guys up to yeah so uh we I say we uh I came along with the the sponsor so once gtcr uh who is our private Equity Group that's backed by sensy now uh made their initial investment into the lawn care industry by acquiring sensy um in December of 22 uh that's where myself and then Casey Taylor Nate hurse and Rob Thomas all all joined as well so Casey and Nate became the CEOs um Chris you know stepped down as acting CEO still stays on our board and you know still see him at at all the events as well and then I stepped in to help run the m&a division um and grow and and build and scale the business so um we acquired since I guess acquiring sensy in in December of 2022 we've done 16 Acquisitions so far so uh highly acquisitive company I mean we're doing a a similar Ro rollup strategy in this industry trying to be able to to to truly build a best-in-class lawn care P control business and uh so we are uh you know working actively to to build it national still to today um right now we span 16 States um and all across Canada as well so we actually go through all North America um and mostly have done that through acquisition but I've continued to to build the organic growth side as well by you know Green Fielding a lot of locations and in certain markets as well and uh yeah looking to to to build a premier business now were you working for JC or did they bring you on to the portfolio company so yeah it's interesting um I we were actually at a company called water logic before so it's a point of use water cooler manufacturer and so we did a very similar uh rollup strategy in that uh in that industry before um before exiting uh we built water Logic for for a period of time and uh ended up exiting to colan actually and it's part of that and Nate Casey partnered up with gtcr and they brought me along with them so um we we left at at the the sale of of water logic to to coligan and then we moved on partnered with gtcr for about six months looked at a variety of different Industries um something that we really you know thought was interesting and we fell in love with Lawn Care actually it's a an amazing industry highly fragmented industry so it allows you to to be able to build a rollup strategy similar to what we did in the water side and then um you know if uh one National player that really is kind of the national player in True Green that we you know would like to be competitive with and you know think that we can compete with so uh we looked at it route-based business as well so it's very similar to the same strategy that we built in the water side so a lot of similarities and everything kind of tailored towards what uh you know we had just done and a lot of uh dos and don'ts right that we learned during that time that we were able to to roll out during uh our time here so now I know sensy has always been a predominantly lawn care business but they do have sign ific pest control services right and so as you guys have continued to grow this business since since the firm SP partnered with gtcr it appears to me that the majority of your focus has been on lawn care Acquisitions is that correct that's correct yeah and we still do I mean we still have done uh two Pest Control pure pest businesses um since acquiring but I would say our main focus right now has been has been in the lawn care side and um it it's a a lot more fragmented I would say a lot less rolled up than the press control industry is as a whole and so uh there we kind of find that need and our main core service is lawn care I mean siny is a is a lawn care business right we do do pest control services we do lawn entry Ser or uh tree shrub care services as well but our our Core Business is lawn care and so that's ultimately what we wanted to to continue to build out and and sought out right from an m&a perspective and and still the majority of the businesses in the Pacific Northwest you guys are kind of growing nationally but that's kind of the core of the business correct so sensy yes and and we've actually gone through the position of rebranding our business now so we're actually a sensy family of companies today so we're we we originally acquired our sensy services right which still is very active and is our main parent company out in the Northwest so um that is where the bulk of our operation is uh up in I guess they're originally headquartered in Kenwick spand Idaho Utah Colorado um and then also we've expanded down to Oregon so that's where main parent sensy is uh since then we run 10 different brands though across the country so now we we are very diverse spread kind of all over the place um and and almost coast to coast in a complete uh combin but we we're missing two states that we're hoping to fill in fill in soon to to be able to really truly have the coast to coast presence is this strategy as it is today to then run this as a family of local Brands as opposed to kind of a True Green National brand is that the yeah I think that that's right right so we are actively you know and and when when partnering with some of these businesses that we acquire right they've got years and years of of you know great marketing and brand recognition in their own respective markets right it didn't make sense for us to then you know acquire a premier business out on the east coast and and call them sensy right and nobody knows who or what sensy is out there so um it you know a lot of those great local Brands uh we wanted to keep maintain and grow those um and we are also you know there's also plays within you know within the market that we're doing where where there will be rebranding over to um whatever it is our our platform brand is in that in that General respective Market but um for the most part we do run and maintain and would like to keep those you know businesses and names separate it it just makes sense and so for you now being relatively new to lawn care what are some things you've learned about the business yeah um it's a it's a great industry it's a great Market um I focus again mainly on just the the growth aspects so more of the uh inorganic growth strategy so the acquisition based strategy and with that um you know every deal is unique and then no matter what industry you do right uh a deal is a deal so um you like to think that they're largely the same but with every single deal you do you find different nuances different uh different areas of opportunity as well on how to approve or what to to roll out so um it seems like it's constantly evolving I would say just kind of one main thing but um I would also think a little bit of the lingo right is as you you switch to to Lawn Care um you my background isn't in lawn care I don't know all the AR agronomic programs and everything right and I'm not a horticulturalist but um you know we do know a lot about growing and building and scaling businesses so that's truly what we try to stick to and and allow you know everyone else to to that's much more familiar with that to to stick with that so what are some attributes to the specific types of targets you guys like to acquire so there's not again one main target uh we have a pretty big range to be honest with you uh we've done many Acquisitions you know all throughout that I would say you know anything from half a million dollar of Revenue in a tuen market that you know somebody wants to uh get rid of a book of business or um you know as big as you know 25 million of Revenue in a in a proper platform business right that's uh very well known in the main area so it it it really varies and there's a wide range um I would say what we truly look for is pure lawn care so spray uh type businesses uh where you're doing that recurring Revenue uh spray work of lawn care side and um that's ultimately what we're after and then you know size if it's in Market you know we can make sense of pretty much anything um and if it's not in market right then it's it's usually has to be uh somewhat sizable and and to put a dollar amount on it it's pretty hard I would say it's it's usually dependent on the just the setup right this the pure setup of the business from an employee perspective if they're built and uh and they're able to grow and have the infrastructure to scale is is really important um but being able able to to have the team that's needed to grow right so we can step in pretty seamlessly I think that that's really what helps us constitute and make sense of of that platform type of acquisition you know considering you're relatively new to lawn care I'm interested in understanding you know what are some of the nuances you've seen based on geography and here's what I mean by that like you know clearly more Northern markets are going to have shorter seasons yeah also less competition so you may have higher pricing in the Southeast it can get very very competitive very quickly downward pressure on pricing so what are some some nuances you've seen based on geographic region yeah I mean I think you said it you said it right right I mean up up north I guess when you think of lawn care uh you know you're thinking of a 12-month season where you can you know be able to to produce Services January through December um so that's technically where it's usually where it's highly competitive right uh pricing is is extremely competitive in those markets but you know the acquisition is extremely competitive as well in those markets and then up north you have a lot more barriers to entry which also make it very compelling to to make an initial investment up there right so um you I guess uh to say you know one's better one's you know different it's we're again we're across 16 States we've done plenty of Acquisitions up north we've uh acquired an entire franchise business up throughout Canada which has the the lowest or the shortest season of any any of the markets but um also have yeah recently actually just grown into to Georgia and in the Southeast and we have a big Texas operation so um it's nice because they all kind of combat each other uh it's a little bit more um it's not as cyclical right in your uh in your Southeast regions which which makes it really compelling but it is extremely competitive which you know makes it difficult on pricing and uh you know just to to to win the operation so do you tend to see custom cust retention rates differ based on geography I realize that's a difficult question because every company depending on Service delivery and so on and so forth but are there any generalizations you can make with regard to customer retention rates um I think that I guess from what I've seen as well the the Southeast region in general right or just the The More Southern States uh is highly competitive so that that allows for you know a much easier way for your customers to leave right and so the retention is usually higher actually up up in the north which um is is pretty surprising just considering but there are is a lot less competition and a lot less players to go to um and so yeah it's pretty generalized what I've what I've seen in this industry and and you guys are not in Florida now we are not actively in Florida is that probably a market you're looking to avoid I would imagine no not I wouldn't say avoid we definitely uh we like Florida I like the beach too you know so we definitely want to be able to get uh grow down to to the Florida market so uh we're hoping one of these days and one of these Acquisitions are uh Greenfield I mean we just bought amazing business in in arboric in in Georgia based in Atlanta so um maybe there's a an opportunity for us to be able to grow that uh gr grow that platform down south to Florida so we'll see yeah I just brought that up just because I know Florida is an extremely competitive place right extremely it also is very difficult right when you think of Florida there's a lot of landscape that has to go along with it right it's kind of the more Pure Play businesses in in in Florida to be competitive to just have that pure Lawn Care spray work right is is more difficult I feel like in in Florida that Market's a lot more tailored to being able to mow do installs build outs and also uh do your fertilization weed control type of services so um it also makes it more it makes it more unique for us to grow into because we don't do some of those service lines so you know when you think about gtcr of course they've been around for decades and decades in fact my former bosses that American Capital came from the Chicago office of gtcr I guess it was gold or TOA back then um but when you take a firm like gtcr what's what would be a typical investment Horizon for something like this yeah I would say uh usually our investment is about 5 to six years right that we that uh gtcr would would need to be able to return to to their investors right some form of liquidity event so um yeah I would say about 5 to 7 years something in that range right and and I guess depending upon the fund gtcr has a variety of different funds you know what's kind of the perhaps the Target in terms of we'll use basic numbers and revenue what do you see this business getting up to in terms of Revenue I know it depends upon opportunities and there's a lot and I'm asking a lot of questions but you know what's kind of when you sit back and think like hey five years from now this is what this business is going to look like what does it look like in your mind yeah um without you know obviously divulging too much about our investment thesis we uh we had a number in mind where I think that that number was you know originally we wanted to be able to to to grow it to be about 250 million in Revenue across the country right and and originally what we had anticipated and originally thought was okay we would do it and grow it across the US um and we had that Horizon you know time Horizon 5 to seven years again right for a liquidity event I would say we are within the first two years much further ahead than any of us probably would have expected to be um or would have thought we would have had we've had some amazing early success in this industry um and we've partnered with some amazing companies right some of the most premier Brands and best-in-class companies within their respective markets and regions and so we've been growing uh very very quickly and it's been it's been a blessing to see to be to be honest with you and so um what do I think it will end up being I think we will be a 35 Plus States across the across the country and and be a true National provider of best-in-class lawn care with some of the best brands in the industry is there any seasonality to Lawn Care Acquisitions from your perspective yes there is um for sure and and and that's partly what I've also come to know really quickly is because the cyclicality right and in the in the off season so if you think about I guess pretty much Q4 q1 right everyone it seems like is trying to sell their business at the same time right everyone everyone's going through that uh okay Now's the Time to be able to you know the season's over before the new season kicks off maybe it's time that we we think about it and then you get through Q Q2 is mainly when everyone's heads down focused on you know trying to get the season up and running and there's a lot of work and effort that takes you know goes into that um bringing all your you know employees back in and and really being able to you know get the camaraderie around to to start the new season right it makes it much more difficult to to first you know approach people at that time and then you know get them to want to think about selling on top of that is is extremely difficult so uh usually you see it's Peaks Q4 q1 tailor down once the season starts to Q2 Q3 you know for years TR green was one of the only acquirers of Lawn Care businesses right I maybe it was clearly way before your time and and they had a strong bias to doing stuff in q1 yeah they didn't want to hold it over the winter do you guys look at it that way as well we don't we do tons of Acquisitions in Q4 and and uh q1 just mainly because that's usually what everyone's you know best time Horizon is and so we like to tailor to those investors um or to the sellers themselves and so uh that's usually when we do the most acquisitions but we do them you know anytime all year round I mean if you find a great business we don't mind holding them during the winter months right and incurring some of that initial expense if uh you know we're we're here for the long term right and for what that investment's going to do for us and over the next you know 5 10 year period rather than you know a month or two during the winter so you know there's a lot of sponsor backed Lawn Care businesses now way more than there were 5 years ago how do you how has sensy differentiated at least potentially in the eyes of sellers versus some of the other ones you talk a little bit about that yeah um how are we different I would say you know outside of you know myself and our amazing team that we have right uh all of our charm and and uh and everything really helps but um no more than anything I would say you know we we are taking a different approach from a pure you know private Equity backed business right we we truly want to invest into the these businesses and we really want to be able to see these businesses grow and and you know flourish and so uh we are extremely selective right now as to who we are partnering with who we are bringing on as well I mean it's not you know just go out there and you know torch the market and acquire everyone um we are again very selective so uh I think it's making sure that the sellers Vision aligns you know for their future of their business aligns with what we want to do as well and so uh you know that starts mainly with the employees making sure that they're well taken care of and that transition goes really well for them um we do look to bring bring them all on and make sure that they're well taken care of and look to to Really invest behind them because they're the ones who've you know are putting in the work every single day to to truly build that business and and I and you know that that same feeling doesn't always align with with all the with everyone else right so um I I would say it's it's truly what what you want to get out of it you know uh but you we have a pretty great story and you know we're we're thinking about it and making sure we're we're very meticulous and and how we're and how we're thinking about the growth of the business and not growing too fast so that we don't know you know how to how to continue that growth but uh really making sure it's tailored to uh you know our efforts and and putting in the the investment behind it as well you know to to to meet the needs so do you envision this business having any any other additional ancillary Services besides lawn and pest we do uh tree and shrub care as well well and I think that goes really really you know hand inand the plan healthare uh side of the of the industry you know with the with the lawn care piece is is goes hand inand and so you'll see a lot of these companies do you know a variety of almost almost like hardly ever are there just pure lawn care companies right I would say you usually find a lot of lawn care companies right the spray type businesses that do a lot of plant Healthcare tree and shrub care um and pest control services Al together right so that's kind of how we get into the variet different Services service offerings that we provide as well and um you know we want to be able to to meet kind of all all the customers needs and and uh we do a lot of different Services outside of just you know those two or three depending on the market as well so some demand you know that you do you know a little bit of everything and so we make sure we tailor to the customers for some of those markets but um yeah I would say you know it's a little bit of little bit of everything whenever basically across those three uh three service lines outside of geography because obviously geography is important specifically when you're growing from the base that you guys are in what are some things that get you excited about any particular Target right some attributes that you see in that Target whether it be management people margin profile growth rates and and what are some things that you look at and you're like yeah that's not for us yeah so I would say you know management is a big big piece right being able to have uh team in place that you know the seller leaves the business doesn't just you know crumble the next day right so I think that's that's that's a big piece being able to make sure you have your management team and your employees set up uh to be able to continue to to to grow and uh you know the sellers are thinking through okay if you know I'm gone tomorrow what what happens to my business right because the investors are all thinking the same thing right so um we want to be able to make sure we we take a lot of that load off you know ourselves and we've built into our integration team really heavily to be able to to help with that uh period and that transition but that always is really helpful right when there's the GM or management in place but uh margin profile is extremely attractive for anyone anyone right any investor um it's always really important I would say you know size pretty much size scalability of growing right multiple branches across multiple different markets right is extremely attractive management you know margin profile and the organic growth piece to it right it's making sure that organically the business is continuing to grow Top Line and bottom line you know by themselves so I think that's really important and and how do you define that I mean so what's what's a good growth rate for you on top and bottom line versus mediocre yeah I would say in this industry it it's you know I would say a good a good growth rate 10 to 10% you know Top Line I would say is kind of what what would be needed to be attractive um I think that's that's pretty important and obviously it's it's easier for a you know smaller business to uh to grow in a bigger market right also depends on a variety of different factors of to to what market and what geography we're talking about but overall I would say you know the standard would be about 10% growth rate you know Top Line and bottom line every year so and what's an interesting gross margin and operating margin for somebody like you yeah and so we talk terms of e you know I'm sure uh you know for all the listeners there it's earnings before interest taxes depreciation amortization just shows basically the true profitability of the business um and of the operation I would say in this industry something that's really attractive right 20% and above um some of the best you know Premier businesses are doing 25 to 30% um if you're you know below 20% I would I would I would reevaluate and see kind of what you know where you're losing the margin whether that's pricing or uh you know employee cost or whatever that may be um I think that's also a really important piece to to margin is your your gross profit and then from a gross profit perspective uh about 55 60% is is on average what we want to see that uh you know you're being able to produce for your Topline service when you're looking at a Target How Deeply do you drill into historical retention rates customer retention rates that is yeah I I think we so again that you know depends among Acquisitions that we're doing um and is pretty much all you know it's all uh it all depends right but I would say um we we definitely you know dig in very you know very meticulously into the customer retention rates for all of these different businesses we want to be able to see you know how high their retention is both from an customer and employee perspective are both you know extremely important but um you know to say there's you know to put a pin on what that looks like right in this market it's uh might make some people upset right about what that may look like or what that may be but um you know I think 20% it's kind of seems like it's about standard right of uh customer turn in this in this industry but you know we would like to see it much much more improved than that have you ever performed a lawn care service yourself I have not I have not I would say I mow my own I do I guess I guess I somewhat have I've I moaned my own yard and uh did my own weed control and fertilization um for my house but uh that was before I guess we bought our platform here in in Texas Emerald lawn so um after we did that they you know they've done a much better job of my lawn than I ever did but imagine um but yeah so we we've been very fortunate to have them but once we once we decided we were going to kind of get into this industry I started taking a much closer look as to you know what that all entails and so try to try to do it on my own and you have a much much bigger respect for you know the tax and all the employees that we have uh across the board I'm curious this platform business versus your last one what are some of the differences from an m&a perspective that you've noticed this business in this industryin itself is is there's a lot more companies um and uh it's again water was was highly fragmented but there was really only two true players between you know water logic and and coligan U where which we were in the water space um so you're always competing against the same person pretty much for every single deal um here as you mentioned earlier right there are starting to become a lot more institutional investors in this industry right a lot more private back businesses um that you know we see but they're mostly Regional based and so we do compete against them and most of you know different regions wherever that business may be um but yeah I would say you know there's just a lot more lawn care companies here than there were water companies so it was a little it was a pretty Niche you know service line in a point of use point of use water so rather than you know generalized Lawn Care Pest Control it seems that there's millions of companies across the country so you know uh from a funnel perspective let's say that you've got 10 potential targets how many do those will you actually do what does that look like I'm just trying to gauge typically how selective you would be and yeah so I would say um right when they originally get on the pipeline we put you know any lawn care company basically on the pipeline uh then there's multiple conversations uh um you know we asked for some high level initial data um and then we get pretty granular about what that vision and that that Focus for for them and that aspect of what they want out of their business and what they want out of you know selling their company um I would say you know usually on that majority of pure lawn care companies right that that focus on on you know the the recurring Revenue stream fertilization weed control services that we produce um they they get on our Pipeline and we have initial conversations we we do close quite a bit of them I would say almost seven for every 10 or so um that we talk to so um you know sometimes div Visions don't always align and that's okay right I me that's that's that's perfectly fine and we're very transparent I think that's kind of the biggest aspect for myself right when doing deal is making sure we're you know all cards are on the table and I'm completely transparent from the beginning because I don't want you know you to get into something that you don't want to get into right I'm not here I'm not a Salesman I'm not looking to hide anything right we ultimately you know are are providing you with an exit strategy but we want to make sure to you know the business fits for us as well as it as it does for them so I think a little bit of both when you think about what you guys are doing over at sensy is there anything you know if I'm a seller is there anything that you can offer me that's unique that I might not get from every other acquirer out there yeah I think that or I guess you know with with our deals right everyone's a little unique but you know most times than not right we allow the sellers to be able to to uh you know roll part of their their Equity into our business as well right so they get kind of get that that opportunity to to continue to to grow their their Capital but then also um you know there's I think a lot more that meets the eye of just doing the deal right I mean uh there a lot more structure involved and we try to make it as seamless as possible for the sellers as a whole right once they decide and once we agree to basically the backbone right the the LOI or letter of intent right then we we pretty much are aligned and feel you know once someone signed to an Loi we're closing 100% of them let me ask you then for for those folks who might not know what that means to roll Equity can you talk about what that might look like for a second sure so yeah when rolling Equity we're ultimately providing the sellers at this point to be able to um invest or co-invest right there their part of their funds over into the greater sensy uh brand right and so uh the ssky family of companies which we think is very very important and you know obviously private Equity groups are all you know really intrigued with it with tons of institutional money coming into this industry um and to be able to be paired with them and you know a lot of those those Acquisitions and what we're building what we're doing um is really enticing to a lot of sellers so I guess in closing Jordan we're coming up on 2025 any particular high level initiatives going on over at sensuke you can talk about I would say we got some green fields in the work you know we have some businesses that were you know looking to launchet you're literally going to start from scratch in a market yes yeah yeah we we've uh done that which again is a little unique too we don't we don't enter every Market through an through m&a but um you know we we do like to you know to invest into some that's already built and established in that in that market before we enter but we've done both so a couple of great you know new green fields that we're looking to to launch this year but also um some very intriguing you know acquisition opportunities on the horizon that that you know we're extremely excited about and uh we'll see you know kind of we'll shape the the face of Sensi cool great I appreciate you joining us today thanks so much for having me absolutely you